Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Game Master - D:OS2 GM Mode - Ideas!

In my earlier posts I was outing myself as NWN2 fanboy and couldnt stop to promote this game as an idea giver.

Now i got hands on Sword Coast Legends (SCL) and this game definately is much uglier than DOS and it's Editor compared to NWN and DOS is a restricted joke (which feels more like a solid one piece of plastic toy rather than lego) and somehow also the DM mode is restricted.

BUT ... i think you could misunderstand it's intention. After having a short session with old PnP friends i had to say the DM Mode is incredible dynamic and feeling live.

I was really impressed that I could use placeables in a live session to broom away PCs and NPCs. Something NWN e.g. never ever was capable of. I can create NPCs with all char generation functionality, quests placeable objects (and destroy them like a roadblock), areas (well just generated), weather and everything on the fly. LIVE.

As you can't create anything really in the Editor mode anyway it does give you the opportunity to gamemaster without any preparation time. This old group of mine doesnt have one single person that could dedicate beside the job and kids and so on hours of work just to prepare a module to play with.

In our first session without any real knowledge about the game and enginge i could do amazing freestlye stuff by really reacting on the players. They wanted to go to that cave over there which location they found out in a freestyle NPC (voice chat) conversation and there we go I generated a dungeon made some custom NPCs based on our in house running gags and we had a lot of fun.

NWN made me tinkering and messing around if not temporarily even geeking out but to be honest I never managed to create something playable for some friends of mine which I was gamemastering.

Please don't make it like SCL, but please please please look at the parts it really got right!
Add a import export function to pretty any asset, location, NPC/ Monster, rules and good DMs who are bad builders will shine!

my 2 cents

My interpretation is that this is essentially the point.

The DOS:2 EDITOR ideally provides the depth I believe you've enjoyed NWN.

Whereas the GM mode is more entry-level tool that also requires less preparation. I'm hoping it will still be reasonably deep.

My point was that SCL Editor and GM Mode is almost the same thing. That means the Editor is pretty weak but the GM Mode while lacking a lot of functionality (e.g. GM has no possibility to inspect player characters and so on) is engine wise really strong because it is basically an Editor but in an live playing environment. See my example of "brooming away" characters with placeables, which i find really impressive!

I really don't know if the Divinity Engine has the possible capacity for "live building" (well terrain building seems pretty unpossible anyway but placing objects). I the Divinity Editor you have to switch to playtesting modus where you can steer characters but you loose the power to place stuff.

We will see once it's done. Just wanted to point out the possible horsepower of certain aspects of a GM Mode which includes a lot Editor functionality!

NWN has pretty strong editor and GM mode.
Those two functionalities are completely different.
Different tools, different UI, for different type of user.

GM interface could alter current game, could add placable like a tree or a treasure chest. Or direct control a creature. Changes in the world made by GM interafce are temporary.

By Editor you can program or set each and every element or setting. You can attach a script to any event of any object. Changes made here are permanent.

However, good controlling GM interface require a skill. Diference between two GMs in NWN was HUGE depend their skils. Also, when you get skilled in NWN editor you could be lost as GM. Different things. I hope that Larians take NWN and play game/editor/GM for weeks to learn.

I'm getting a bit confused about the points you two are making at the moment, probably due to my lack of experience with SCL and the online/modding component of NWN.

Please also exposed as a trigger in the script API. Sometimes I do want some time to inspect how well my munchkins are doing, before deciding how difficult to make the next area.

E.g. I place a door, add the "pause" trigger, and then I can decide in time if I want to adjust what's behind the door.


As for procedural generation: Its a must have for the map editor, that's for sure.
But I also expect it in other places, e.g. loot distribution, random character generation and other roles where you need something dynamically generated during a live game session.

One fundamental condition though: I still want to choose as a GM which of the autogenerated elements I want to pick, and, if I want to customize it further prior to spawning it.

This goes hand in hand with the "pause" function - whenever the game would handle something via trigger in a fully scripted campaign, respectively would roll something (outside of the combat system), I want the option to intercept and choose what should happen next.

As for map generation:
The ability to pre-generate modules for boss areas, cities and alike where customized NPCs or key elements of the story take place is certainly required. But on-the-fly generation of tiny dungeon modules, house interiors and alike isn't less important - and once again with the same prerequisite that the GM can choose or force a re-roll if he isn't happy with the generated module, as well as the option to pause the game to make some final preparations. This effectively allows large, vivid cities without blocked off areas, without the need for the GM to plan everything in detail ahead.

Effectively, I'm not even sure if you need to generate every single house interior on map generation for GM mode - leaving the areas "blank" with on-the-fly generation of interiors and alike is sufficient if the players are not going to break into every single house. Unlike single-player, where you always have those annoying users who try to glitch into every single single off-limits area, inevitably encountering "empty" regions. In GM mode, you could leave an area (explicitly) unmodeled, and patch in procedural content if required. The game engine would need to track these areas by shape, and would require the ability to give a preview without actually distributing the submodule yet.


As for live control of players and NPCs: Yes, it's necessary. But it shouldn't be the default. Generally, the GM shouldn't be locked into the same timeframe as the players, as his primary role is to ensure that world around the players remains vivid and responsive, while the players are kept busy in encounters.

I'm not yet sure how to deal with players who want to use the environment or act more RP like - especially beyond the engines capabilities. Allow the GM to trigger arbitrary effects on behalf of a player action? Essentially a "powerplay" skill button which hands control over to the GM to resolve the effects?

I'd appreciate an optional tutorial that handholds you through the systems by having you create a scenario. This scenario will be the same for everyone, but should go over the systems in depth.

Not sure of the features yet, but here is an example,
"Welcome to the GM Mode Tutorial! GM Mode is a powerful tool that can be used to build scenarios for your friends and possibly others to enjoy. Look at how empty your world is. Literally nothing is here. Let's fix that! First, click here(an arrow pops up showing you where to click) to open the "Map Building" options. *Player Clicks* Here, you will find a vast variety of tools to help build your map. Now click on the "Flooring" tab(an arrow pops up showing you where to click). *Player Clicks* For starters, let's use the "Grassland"(an arrow pops up showing you where to click) texture to create our flooring. *Player Clicks* Ok, now click and drag your mouse to create some flooring. Let's start with a 20x20 square lot. *Player makes the correct size lot* Ok, now lets add a building. Now, click on the "Buidlings" tab(an arrow pops up showing you where to click) *Player clicks* Let's add a cabin to our grassland(an arrow pops up showing you where to click)*Player clicks*. Now place the cabin in the center of the lot(I imagine there is a green outline(red if you can't place it there) that shows you how much room the cabin will take up). *Player clicks to place cabin* Good, now lets add an NPC. First, exit out of "Map Building"(an arrow pops up showing you where to click) *Player clicks* Now click on "NPC Creator"(an arrow pops up showing you where to click)*Player clicks* This is where you can create your own non-playable characters, or NPC for short. But let's use one of the pre-made characters for now(an arrow pops up showing you where to click).*Player clicks*


... and so on until you have completed your very own scenario.

Hi there,

Reading through this thread, I understand there are many NWN nostalgists, like myself.

I believe the NWN system (itself based on P&P) should be the inspiration:
1- prepare the game (design, draw, put-up NPCs, encounters, write dialogs, script if needed (this part should be user-friendly, which is a challenge))
2- play as DM, during multi-player: summon, change small part of the environment (and, NO, sorry, you don't change the maps at this time, nor do you design monsters or NPCs !), move a (invisible to players) DM avatar to plan encounters/traps/events changes ahead of time, control NPCs/monsters. An OOC chat system would be nice (allows the occasionnal AFAIK), like NWN's.

I think the system has to support the fact the DM is also a player. That means he's not gonna play every single NPCs/monster, except if he really wanted it this way ! Ideally, it should even be possible to spectate only, if all events are well done.

Last I recall, NWN fell a bit short in the DM arena, as the DM client was cumbersome hence some DM modders had created some magic wands (one for summoning, one for changing placeables etc ...) that would concentrate all DM's powers in the quick inventory, which would eliminate the need to go at length through menus to animate the game. I think this was an excellent idea.

Some quick ideas on top of my mind:
- quick jump to players' party button, for when you were busy somewhere changing en encounter, and want to move ASAP to the party
- quick access to player's stats, skills and inventory. Ability to change them.
- loot pools that would be randomised at open times: game would pick up one of the pool's item randomly.
- ability to save the state of the game and start again later at the same point. Not everyone has the ability to play 10 hours in a row, so I think this is important.

OK, I think this is all I can think of for now

Before heading into a list, I'd just like to mention that I finally registered (after backing a long while ago) just to add a suggestion for this topic today, since it means so much to me. I've always been interested in GMing for friends and have had my most fulfilling experiences even with the thusfar lackluster games that have allowed such content in the past. As such, I've decided to separate the list into what I want, what would be nice, and what I don't care about; all in order to hopefully get at least the core of what I need to create a good time with me and my friends.

This is what I want (and thus suggest):
- The ability to control each AI monster during a combat encounter.
The tension of each turn caused by this makes me drool. It also allows me to have monsters focus attacks in ways that seem realistic, such as unintelligent monsters attacking the person threatening them as opposed to walking an extra 30 ft away to hit melee someone who is vulnerable, even if that is the stronger move. It allows me to cause monsters to take complex counters to typical player strategy such as stringing monsters out through a chokepoint or stacking the monster's spawn with placeable objects.

- The ability to clear or reset quest flags.
Often in the first game I was frustrated by the inevitable minor inconsistencies caused by important NPCs being killed or finishing things out of order. I'd like to solve these for the player after making a human, case to case decision.

- The ability to spawn new monsters manually.
Mostly for the purpose of repopulating certain areas or encounters or making them harder/easier, even understanding this might cause unbalance in either direction. There were some lackluster encounters in the first game where there were just 3 or 4 random monsters on the road with no chance of actually threatening the party. There were also some great encounters with multiple factions fighting each other at the same time in large scale combat. I want to be able to adjust to make sure we're always having fun.


This is what would be nice to have:
- Adding dialogue from the perspective of an NPC actor I'm controlling.
Very minor, but sometimes I feel like certain NPC should recognize certain achievements or things in the environment. A man who has had his house robbed by an invisible thief should complain to the guards or ask the player for an explanation.

- Adding traps/perm environmental hazards.
For the sake of balance and repopulating traps in areas where it makes sense.

- Adding environment effects that are normally temporary, such as rain or puddles or tar.
For ambience.

- Able to switch between Player and GM freely.
This is extremely minor, but would help me significantly since I only have 3 friends I'd play with. We were originally stoked to run the game with the 4 of us, but with the GM mode, I would be leaving them with a vacancy I'd like to fill with the equivalent of a GMPC.

- Creation of custom items.
This is just a fun tidbit that I don't expect will be added but would love to see.


This is what I don't care about, but seems likely to be considered:
- Map making.
- Quest scripting.
- GM limitations to protect against griefing/bad GMs.

I feel like I arrived to the party kinda late.

Just found D:OS EE about a month ago and I have been hooked.

I read about the GM features, I have been thinking about the potentials this can have for the community and Larian.

I am a old school table top D&ad guy from way back (I played 2e when Regan was in office). There is a small, but growing community of tabletop gamers who play table top games on PC. Google: Roll20, Fantasy Grounds. Many of these people will jump from game system to game system to play with good GM's or well written content.

Larian has a very real optertunity to capitalize on a market desperately seeking an improving venue, WOTC dropped the ball big time with SCL. Huge let down, what could have been a great game with turn based play. Turned into a Diablo style game where i constantly felt that my party's potential was not properly utilized, either due to crap party AI, or clunky controls. I can say the same about NWN 1 and 2. The GM mode was the biggest let down. So much potential unexplored, and unexploited.

If larian can deliver a system where the DM can generate custom maps ( based on existing game graphics, or allow community submissions) With prefabricated monsters, like out of a game bestiary, or community creations. Where the GM can control the monster during combat, very important. If Larian was charging a nominal fee for campaign space, and added features (look at Roll20's model, free access to players, more bells and whistles for subscribed players, GM's). Allow the community to provide content, monsters, graphic assets, there are creative people out there with time on their hands. At the end of the day Larain could have a product that may produce an income stream for years.

People are still playing around with NWN2 editors, and persistent worlds. How many years has it been since it was released?

Variant rules?

Undead having a chance of rising again after being killed, unless being disintegrated or burned (in other words, the corpse should be more or less intact). chance is set up by the GM.

Hey everyone New here this is my first post when I heard about dos2 having a gm mode I instantly hopped on board since sword coast legends has died out I'm hoping that dos2 can replace my dm hopes and it seems it can based on everyone saying that they wanted a d&d game and dos received a lot of praise so I'm hoping that the mp is actually active and flourishes

I'm assuming in gm mode you can create nps dialogue your own quest and actually play the campaign you create live with your friends with you as the gm etc a please tell me you can! ?

Basically kinda what scl tried to do but with way way way more in depth

Anyway this is the d&d campaign I hoped to make with scl and I'm hoping it can flourish and people can actually play it so tell me what you think
Prologue books

War of the immortals

Dark reign

The Necromancer wars

Main series
Dark rebirth (book I)
Eternal night (book II)
Rise of the Blood moon (book III)
Blood war (book IV)
Prophecy of destruction (book v)
Ritual of chaos (book VI)
War of Destiny (book VIII)

Book I
It's the end of the sixth age in azeroth and darkness is spreading throughout the land an ancient enemy returns and with the imperial order of mages decimated and the corruption of the ruling count of the empire it's up to your party to save azeroth from this dark threat

Your choices matter what you do affects the story

Deep lore characters you care about you are the hero of azeroth begin your journey !

You may be assuming too much.

There have been some differences in opinion about what a GM mode should be. It's not entirely clear what Larian's vision for this will be.

My impression of Sword Coast Legends is that it wanted to turn being a GM into a game against the player. An asymmetrical battle of wits. I am hoping Larian does not emulate this.

I am hoping Larian tries to create an experience as close as possible to the established role of the GM in existing tabletop games such as D&D (ie, as a storyteller/facilitator).

Of course, I'm not in charge. Feel free to suggest any other features you'd like to see.

That's ultimately what I want to to tell a story in game I've made as gm while occasionally stepping in the role of fate /the God's etc to increase the challenge

Incorrect - SCL definitely tried to make (almost force) GM mode into being cooperative, storyteller/facilitator. It tried to appeal to very "beginning" GMs with no-experience and almost "hand-hold" them. It was like GM with training-wheels. You only had so much of a "threat" pool that you could "spend" creating monsters/traps on the fly so you didn't overwhelm the players.

I think it was a good attempt at trying to teach GM balance, and they also allowed GM playing without the "threat pool" training wheels if desired.

You could also "possess" any placed creature or NPC and move them, use their abilities, etc. A pretty decent GM mode actually - the core problem was the Fisher-Price "kiddie" adventure editor that handcuffed the storyteller/creator in what they were allowed to create. THAT was a huge miscalculation. Probably THE major cause of failure.

That's what everybody said the gm mode in scl wasn't deep enough no true monster creation not enough monster variety no branching dialogue and no tile by tile creation. That is what everyone wanted and I think it needs to happen here in order for gm mode to be successful

But God's I can't wait to gm some games in this being a gm and also having the hero's being able to kill and betray echother opens up so many possible new campaign idea's

I think part of the problem is there are two different things people need and there seems to be some overlap and confusion about them.

1. Adventure Creation/Editing - everything from terrain, lighting, triggers, events, object placement, trap placement, npc and monster creation/equipment/abilities, treasure placement, quests, dialog, etc. all done without players.
2. GM Player Interaction Mode -- realtime, monster movement/possession/ability-use/combat, buff/de-buff/kill/spawn, etc.

Part of SCLs problem was it tried to overlap the two distinct modes too much.
Hopefully DOS:2 won't try and cram both together and will support both well.

Do you mean first you would create your campaign then when your finished you can gm it with friends but can't edit the quest terrain etc only spawn in and posses monsters? Please elaborate

Well, yes. When I look at it though, there's actually 3 layers to this.

1. There's classic modding. This is like what you have in Skyrim or XCOM 2. In Skyrim, you find plenty of mods that improve the graphics. Also, in XCOM 2, if I want to create a new alien to play with, then this is added to the core game and any existing save games are affected. Ideally, all content-creation should be pushed to the following layers.

2. There are creation tools. This would be a bit like RPGMaker or Battle for Wesnoth. You can build-your-own campaign/module that can be shared and played without having to modify the core campaign. I think we can expect this to include creating custom creatures/equipment with custom assets. This will give you essentially full control over your own custom campaign, but you would need to create it in advance.

3. GM mode allows you to manage a gameplay session mostly in real time.

You will definitely be able to do everything you want to do. It's just not entirely clear which features will exist in which layer. For example, it's not yet clear whether you'll be able to do things like control dialogue in the GM mode or if you'll be forced to plan 100% of your dialogue in advance in the creation tools. It's also not clear how easy the creation tools will be to use for novices like myself.

But I understand it's norD's job to read your suggestions.

Yep, exactly.
1. Modding - should allow the hard-core to actual edit/create 3-D models, sounds, voice-overs, scripts, etc.

2. Adventure Creation Tools - should be easy enough for non 3-D modelers and non-scripters to create adventures that hopefully don't require a GM to moderate.

3. GM mode - needs to be easy (and powerful) enough for GMs to interact and adjust stories to the players choices. It should not need full on terrain editing, but should allow placement of "large" terrain related assets like giant boulders, or collapsed mine debris, etc. Basically easy access to any placeable "objects" including lights and sounds.