Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 - The Modding Dungeon Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Modding General - D:OS2 ModdingTool - Discussions/Suggestions

Wizards. Lots of them, paired with documentation.

As I don't see it in the list, I'll put it forward: A self contained equipment/item editor.

After fiddling with the EE Editor, with the help of Baardvark and SniperHF, I've come to want an item editor that is built into the game editor. I've seen item editors in editors for games like Dragon Age Origins or Elder scrolls games and used them with little effort.
Understanding how to add a custom item in DOS:EE was less straightforward, what with most of the editing being done outside the editor.

Please PLEASE create a greyscale importer by default in the editor. Don't make me make something like this again.

https://github.com/Celludriel/DOS_Terrain_Importer
https://github.com/Celludriel/DOS_Terrain_Lib

Do you have any idea how much headaches this gave me when I made it :p Not even sure they still work I haven't maintained it with future patches. Nobody was using it because the toolset was to complex.

Try and take a lesson from NWN 1 , make it easy and accessible for most people. Make it fun to use and mods/campaigns will follow. Make it to complex and it will fall on it's bum again

Soooooo much this ^^^.

Some background...

I wrote the first NWN1 NWScript language reference PDF and was heavily involved in the NWN1 community from early beta thru a year after release. Due to the complexity of editing, I eventually lost interest and faded away. I've watched almost all UGC (User Generated Content) editors in various RPGs over the years. I have been heavily involved in NWO (Neverwinter Online) in the Foundry community. I created several projects in Project Spark, and recently have watched and suffered through the fumblings of SCL (Sword Coast Legends).

That being said, the BEST UGC Editors I have worked with have been NWO, Project Spark, and SCL. NWO has generated tens of thousands of UGC Adventures; Project Spark as well. SCL was unfortunately HORRIBLY mismarketed and targeted at 8-10 year old creators -- the "Fisher Price" of UGC Editors. However, it was at least on the right track albeit considerably anemic in power.

D:OS1 appears to have a quite powerful but very user-hostile editor, and a horrid scripting "language" in Osiris. D:OS1 seems to be a Swiss Army knife with 4,397 functions. I have scoured the internet searching as best I could for basic adventure "mods" for D:OS1 and think I found 2. TWO. TOTAL. Fail. Waaaay too complex for non-developers (and I've been a software developer for 40+ years).

So, here are some suggestions and things I (hope & pray) D:OS2 Editor improves.

* Simplify UGC "Adventure" module creation. Non "modders" need simplified terrain layout, 3-d object placement, and very simple trigger/event handling. They should be able to create a shareable adventure without once having to see/touch Osiris scripting.
* Don't cripple "modders" at the expense of "module creators."
* Osiris needs some major language skills. I haven't studied it in depth, but it appears to be almost like programming PLC (Programmable Logic Circuits) without even rudimentary language structure (if-then-else; statement blocks, etc). Seems closer to assembly code. If nothing else it needs a pre-processor to convert REAL language constructs into whatever Osiris understands.
* 3-D Asset Selection - A File chooser does NOT cut it. There needs to be a (static/2-D) "palette" of objects, organized in sub-tabs or categories that we can see visually at a glance. A 3-D mini-previewer of selected objects would be nice as well.
* 3-D Asset Placement - In 3-D view window, an easy way of placing assets -- perhaps attached to ground or walls, but then further refinement allowing full 3-D rotation on all axis, as well as shifting along all axis.
* Event Triggers - D:OS1 seems to already have a good selection, but improving user-experience would help. An easy way of link triggers and events (Asset Appearance/Disappearance, Sound/Visual effect appear/disappear, etc.) all without requiring user to ever see a line of associated scripting.

PLEASE look at NWO Foundry editor (AND Dialog Editor!) for a "goal" of easy User Experience.

Adventure/Story creators are VASTLY different than "modders."
As long as you leave hooks and accessibility "modders" are incredibly resourceful.
Adventure/Story creators NEED ease of use.

Thanks, and I really, REALLY hope D:OS2 succeeds here -- we could really use a good UGC edtior for RPG.

Exactly what Eldarth says, You stuck longer with SCL then I did. I did play it yesterday though, just to pass the time. Playing a game just to pass the time, should be a tell that something is off. Make D:OS 2 in such a way that we want to play and have more and more adventures after the main campaign and make it possible to create those adventures in a user friendly way.

I'm all for writing addons to help people in this, but not like last time, none of the file types where described and they had to be deciphered by someone else. Then I had to write libraries to read and write those file types , before I actually was able to start on a plugin.

Also when can I come over for a visit I only live like 80km away

I agree a lot of this stuff would be nice, and the distinction between modders and module creators is important.

But I think a lot of the criticisms of the D:OS 1 editor can be boiled down to people blaming the editor for not doing something it never attempted. Nor claimed to for that matter.

D:OS 2 absolutely should be more friendly in this regard due to the GM mode.

After my recent post in the GM mode thread, I realised that there were a couple of ideas I had that aren't entirely obvious, and are more relevant to this thread rather than the GM Mode.

As I mentioned in that post, there are potentially 3 layers to the proposed modding tools.

1. Core modding tools
2. Creation tools
3. GM mode

When it comes to the "creation tools", I realised there was something I wanted to say about how modules, ideally, should work.

I enjoyed XCOM 2, and it's great that it's got such good community support for modding it, but it does make some big mistakes when it comes to supporting content modules. If I want to add a new alien to the game, I download the mod for the alien, and it affects all save games in XCOM 2. If I later delete the mod, then XCOM 2 will then refuse to load any of my new save games. The mods are not at all quarantined from the core game.

If you look at the game Battle for Wesnoth, this is an open-source game that does an good job of supporting modules on the campaign level. I can download 10 different campaigns, open the game, choose the campaign I want to play, and then play the campaign which will include custom NPCs, new gameplay mechanics and custom creatures with new assets.

First of all, what I'd like to see is tools allowing for the creation of a campaign module in the style of Battle for Wesnoth where campaigns are installed in parallel, without conflicting with each other (the core campaign should just be the "default" module). Ideally, when hosting multiplayer, it shouldn't be necessary for the clients to have already installed the module. The module should be automatically uploaded to the clients if they don't have the exact same module (of the exact same version).

Items, NPCs, assets, etc should also be modularised. This means, for example, that I can create a custom weapon "Ayvah's sword of vengeance" (potentially with its own 3D model). Or potentially even a whole new class of weapons. Maybe I feel like creating a module which allows you to pick up anachronistic machine guns as a new class of weapons. Upload the module to Steam Workshop or whatever service we'll be relying on, and it's available for other content creators to attach to their campaign. Perhaps another content creator is inspired by these new machine guns and makes his own variation as a separate module relying on my module.

When installing or loading a campaign module, it will automatically identify these dependencies and ensure they're all installed.

At least, I really think this would be ideal.

I haven't really seen the new dialog editor much, but a suggestion for it.

On the old one there was an option for "emotional expression" which plays an animation on the NPC during dialog. It would be great if there were more animation options for those emotion expressions.

Maybe have the field let you pick from all available animations for that character? Or let you manually imput the string as an override? Or make it possible to play an animation from the ACTION section without using a flag.

Some more editor suggestions...

General Functionality

* NPC Faction Change on Dialogue Completion: Sometimes you really want an NPC to go from friendly or neutral, straight to hostile.
* Option to Strip Players of Gear: Possibly a controversial one, but starting players out stripped of gear for a module (if this option is set, the module should say so in order to avoid issues. Like a prompt saying "You will be stripped of your gear joining this module"
* DM Abilities: Sometimes you want, as the DM, to heal, buff or debuff your players. Heck, sometimes you want to heal your monsters. Gifts from the gods, to one side or another. One of the great things about being able to debuff players is acting as curses, saying the enemy has injured them, etc.
* Map Duplication: Make a map, duplicate that map, and change it from there. Why is this useful? Say you have a city. The players leave this city. Later they come back to the city. It has been attacked by raiders. You want to be able to take what you had and make a destroyed version. Doing this from scratch can be problematic, especially if your memory sucks.
* Pitch Black Atmosphere: Some dungeons don't have any light sources other than the doorway. Sometimes they don't even have that if you go deep enough. This would be huge for creating suspenseful, nerve-wracking maps.
* Ability / Class Checks Matter: While dealing with Branching Dialogue, we'd love to be able to set up inherent ability checks in to conversations. Not just ability checks but class checks as well. For example, you may be able to talk your way out of a potential combat scenario with a charisma check. Maybe you can help someone with a problem by being a Wizard. Maybe certain quests will only be available to Rogues, or someone with a high intelligence. Perhaps you can pseudo Sense Motive with Wisdom to tell that an NPC is holding something back, opening up a Charisma check option to get them to spill the beans. There is a huge amount of things a good DM can do with this.
* Populate Area with NPCs: Right now we have to create every single NPC for a town ourselves. What would be nice is the ability to quick populate a town without needing to create every, single towns-person, craftsman, farmer, villager, etc. Could be a creature set.

Quests

* Custom Quest "Story Items" - Basically just an "inventory icon" name and description. So we can create quest-related items: Purple mushrooms, Troll Thumbs, Historical Tomes, Orc Tribal Necklace, etc.
* Randomly Dropped Custom Quest Item From Killed Mob: Some people do want to be able to set up quests like "Collect 3 Spider Venom Sacs". Unimaginative, but sometimes a necessary evil for questing. Sometimes an NPC REALLY does need those monster items for something important. Sometimes it's just a random side quest. Sometimes it's a random side quest that could be important later, if you completed it. Either way, a useful addition to questing.

Ambience

* Disable Lights: Torches, window lighting in cities, etc. Sometimes you want an abandoned city only lit by moonlight.
* Placeable Point Lighting: Perhaps there is a light coming from the ceiling (through cracks or holes) and you want to aim them at specific places, or just fill your dungeon with random lighting from various sources. Heck, maybe all you want to do is extend the existing light sources. Adjustable radii are useful.
* Selectable Music Per Map: We'd like to be able to set a maps various music instead of having it all chosen for us. Area Music, Battle Music, etc. If you guys have various tavern themes, we'd love to play them in actual taverns we create. Either repeats a single track or cycle through tracks we choose. Both options would be nice. You guys gave us the tools to create atmosphere with lighting and various effects, let us do it with music too.
* Placeable Sound Effects: Sometimes you want to hear running water in an area, because running water is nearby. Or dripping. Or squeaking. All sorts of things can be done here.
* Overhead Announcements: Maybe you want the players to know there is a massive attack happening somewhere. People don't have to use this, but some want it.
* Placeable Visual Effectsnt: Smoke, fire, glowing magic pixie fairy rings, dripping water, waterfalls, water planes, lava, etc.

Other

* More Humanoid Armor: Weapons and shields are nice, but we could really use the ability for humanoid monsters to be able to change armor. Weapons and shields are nice, but some creatures could have different armor types (ESPECIALLY humanoids). It'd be awesome for making NPC factions a thing. Selectable hairstyles would also be nice for some creatures (like Goblins.) Variant enemies are nice and all, but we could definitely take it further with some species. Being able to apply scars and whatnot to monsters can help when making a unique version.
* Large Color Selection: We don't even have fluorescent pink for our Ogres to disguise as pretty pink princesses. This makes some of us sad. Not many dark options currently. Lots of brights.
* NPC Patrol/Waypoint/Paths: Sometimes you want enemies or NPCs to walk around. Maybe you want them to patrol. Maybe you want them to go to a specific place. We can't do any of this right now. Monsters included. Sometimes you want the NPC to flee after having a conversation with the players, such as if you free them from a cage and they thank the players. You wouldn't want that NPC to stick around (It needs to be doable DM-less so the DM can focus on other things. Not all of us are amazing micromanagers.) Another thing that would be very useful is having NPCs run up to players for a conversation. Maybe you want to set up a side-quest that is given that way. It all makes the world feel more alive!
* NPC Wandering: Towns can be an incredibly stale environment when NPCs are all standing around doing nothing. Sometimes you want your non-important NPCs to walk around. Heck, sometimes you want your IMPORTANT NPCs to walk around. Sometimes you want that lawkeeper to survey a crime scene. Sometimes you want townsfolk going about their daily lives. This would do wonders for making much of a campaign feel more alive. Monsters included.
* Better Control of Aggro Radius: Sometimes you want an enemy to see the player the second they're on screen (as long as there is line of sight). Sometimes you don't want them to see players until they're right up against the characters nose. Maybe the enemy is blind.

@Eldarth,

I've read your last 2 posts, and I really agree with every single word. Top posts, by the way !
It seems to me you fired the NWN editor recently, yes ?
I seem to see some NWN related things ...

As for programming languages, which also was my job long ago, I think it is totally true adventure creators need ease of use, without requiring high language skills, or photoshop skills. So that means a language with triggers, if-then-else, and other basic stuff.

At contrary, modders don't mind the complexity of C, C++ etc ...

Both population are different in essence, and should be addressed accordingly.

+1 on this one.

If I may add a relevant suggestion.

You've made a town that has a day-time version and night-time version, so all the terrain and the structures placed are the same. But the NPCs diverts, at night the cheese vendor who stand on the market in daytime is at home in his bed dreaming of cheeses and the night watch have left its barrack and are now patrolling the streets looking for trouble makers. You as the PC have rented a room at the inn, here the bed serve as gateway between the night-time and day-time versions of the town.

But there is a catch that needs a solution.
Lets say you decided to burglarise a merchants shop, you break in at night while he sleeps in his bed upstairs and steals a golden ornate dagger from a display. So the problem here is that if you return to his shop next day with the dagger in your inventory there will still be a dagger in the display, because there is a "day-time version" and a "night-time version" of the dagger.

So my solution here is that there needs to be some sort of "quantum entanglement" mechanism between items or NPCs on 2 different levels, so interacting with one will effect the other.

Another example, you have become very annoyed at the cheese vendor, so you break into his house at night and while he sleeps in his bed you smother him with "a wheel of the good stuff", then you dump his body in the river and watch it float away. So the next day you don't want him standing at market again soliciting his germ infested milk products.

Again here you kill a NPC on one level and he should be connected to the "same" NPC one the other level, that will therefor disappear.

I hope my suggestion has been made clear.

Thanks. Not sure what you mean by "fired" the NWN editor -- do you mean "fired up" as in started or played with? ...in any event, nope haven't played with it in quite awhile -- I actually was heavily into the NWN1 game and created one of the first NWScript programmer PDF documents. So, definitely familiar at least with the NWN1 editor.

As a node.js programmer, I would like to promote Javascript as the best choice as a language for modders. This has increasingly become a popular language in modern game engines for a good reason. It's used in Unity, RPG Maker, etc.


This can mostly be resolved just with triggers. That is, you trigger both versions of the cheese vendor as, eg "cheeseVendor.onDeath = function() { cheeseVendorDeath = true;}" and you can test against this to remove him from other parts of the game. It should ideally be very simple programming.

Either that or Larian will already have a more elaborate solution. After all, there are going to be plenty of killable characters in their campaign that will be mobile enough to move between maps.

That being said, I think it *would* be good to be able to specifically say that there is only one cheeseVendor and that it is the same cheeseVendor that appears on both maps so that there is less abstraction.

The tricky part about your suggestion for me is -- what if the player *moves* something. He picks up a barrel and moves it a couple of meters. You could abstract that using triggers as well, but it would not be as easy, and there are plenty of problems with this. For example, imagine the shop owner is only in the shop during the day. In the night version of the map, you pick up a barrel and drop it where he usually stands. When you return during the day time, where is he? Inside the barrel?

Okay, then maybe make it impossible to drop items on places where NPCs, on a duplicate map, will stand or have a route on. You could also make a rule that forbids dropping some items, such barrels in houses or just have them disappear on the duplicate map. Wouldn't it be weird if you drop an oil barrel, which in the game is basically a bomb, on the floor of a merchants house and the next morning the shop keeper is just standing there. Wouldn't he just get rid of it or store it somewhere safe if he was kinda sentient?
But then again all these rules and mechanism will probably have some unintended spillover effects, so maybe the whole idea should probably just be discarded or implemented in another way.

Yes, I meant "fire up", sorry, non native english, here and all the rest of that ...
I meant your posts sound very influenced by NWN1, which is 100% OK to me.

Yeah - I really liked NWScript and really, REALLY hope Larian turns Osiris into a "real" computer language that's got real syntax instead of whatever Frankenstein cobbled together state-machine/assembly/stack mess it appears to be in D:OS1.

Agreed. I have very fond memories of Aurora, and to see the Divinity Toolset as more similar to it would make me very happy.

I just really hope that they put in as much effort in to the gm mode as they seem to be doing with the betrayal and multiple dialogue features gm mode is the main reason I'm interested

It needs a good campaign creation mechanic
Plz larian plz don't just put the minimum effort in to gm mode I really really want this to flourish and be a great place to play a old school rpg online
You guys have the chance to succeed were sword coast legends failed and obviously their is a demand for this type of feature in rpgs otherwise ppl would not have thrown a fit at sword coast legends while having memories of dming in the old d&d games like nwn2
Sincerely a new found fan of dming d&d game's

well, going to give my own insight into this, since its a game that I am really eager to get my hands on. But my only "request" is that we can edit/add assets, and by that I specifically mean Character creation assets, like rigged models. When I got Divinity: Original Sin, I got a bit disappointed that I was not able to import rigged models into the game, and pretty much abandoned the game, and only actually played the game after D:OS EE was released for Mac, and found out the about the tool Norbyte developed that allowed me to do exactly that.

Really hoping this is something we are able to do, if not when the game is published, at least soon enough.

Seconded.