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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2013
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So, with the introduction of a new attribute, I imagine players will be even more strapped for points on level up. I already found hybrid characters very lacking in D:OS and I fear this problem will be exacerbated in D:OS 2. As a solution I'd suggest giving the PC more attribute points to spend than the companions. You only create 1 character this time around so it would be easier to balance. It's also a bit of a staple in party-based games with companions for the PC to have slightly better stats (e.g. Baldur's Gate). Hybrid characters were a staple of the Divinity series before D:OS, there were so many abilities you could combine into one character. The rigid system in D:OS could just as well have been class-based.
I know there are things like Lone Wolf but given the fact that you had to make up for one missing party member I usually didn't spend the extra points on making hybrid characters (which performed worse).
I honestly don't care about multiplayer so I don't know how this could work there. Maybe it's just a solution for single player mode, to make up for the fact that you can't create a whole party (which I think was implied by Larian at an earlier date).
Last edited by Sacred_Path; 24/08/16 12:25 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2016
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So, with the introduction of a new attribute, I imagine players will be even more strapped for points on level up. I already found hybrid characters very lacking in D:OS and I fear this problem will be exacerbated in D:OS 2. As a solution I'd suggest giving the PC more attribute points to spend than the companions. You only create 1 character this time around so it would be easier to balance. It's also a bit of a staple in party-based games with companions for the PC to have slightly better stats (e.g. Baldur's Gate). Hybrid characters were a staple of the Divinity series before D:OS, there were so many abilities you could combine into one character. The rigid system in D:OS could just as well have been class-based.
I know there are things like Lone Wolf but given the fact that you had to make up for one missing party member I usually didn't spend the extra points on making hybrid characters (which performed worse).
I honestly don't care about multiplayer so I don't know how this could work there. Maybe it's just a solution for single player mode, to make up for the fact that you can't create a whole party (which I think was implied by Larian at an earlier date). I agree smart placement in keeping your character focused in only one class is simply more powerful then multi class.. What about getting bonuses once you start to more obviously multi class? Some kind of stat or talent bonus once you reach certain totals in points and attributes that usually don't go together?
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2013
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What about getting bonuses once you start to more obviously multi class? Some kind of stat or talent bonus once you reach certain totals in points and attributes that usually don't go together? Yeah, some sort of synergies between skills would also be a good idea.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2015
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The issue isn't the amount of attribute points you get (and in the original you got a lot more skill points essentially from bonuses anyhow) but that pooling into two main attributes severely weakened your character overall.
Combined with the fact that items that gave you multiple primary attributes were uncommon, meaning that you are further depleting your effectiveness.
So if they gave you 1, 2, 3, or 4 extra... it would just boil down to the same event that any point not put into your primary attribute is only diluting your overall combat effectiveness.
My personal viewpoint is they need to put in traits specifically geared towards "multiclassing" that ease the disadvantages of it... As well as weapons and gear... geared towards being Dex+Int, STR+DEX, STR+INT...
THOUGH maybe this game won't penalize you as much this time.
Note: I am aware going Major/Minor did work well. You could get away with only 12 intelligence if you weren't intending on going past say 1 aeromancy.
I am referring to Double Major (equal or near equal focus).
Last edited by Neonivek; 24/08/16 03:10 AM.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2013
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The issue isn't the amount of attribute points you get (and in the original you got a lot more skill points essentially from bonuses anyhow) but that pooling into two main attributes severely weakened your character overall.
Combined with the fact that items that gave you multiple primary attributes were uncommon, meaning that you are further depleting your effectiveness.
So if they gave you 1, 2, 3, or 4 extra... it would just boil down to the same event that any point not put into your primary attribute is only diluting your overall combat effectiveness. In D:OS on the higher difficulties, hybrids just didn't cut it. IMO. IOW they weren't a viable choice at all. What I'm arguing for is that going hybrid might still not be viable for anyone but the PC. It would only make the PC more effective. More effective as a single class character, too? Yes. But if you go past the point where you have to be single class just to get by, going hybrid actually has its advantages (in a 4 person party to boot). No 1 single character can duke it out without support in a party-based game, no matter how good he is at his class.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2016
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The issue isn't the amount of attribute points you get (and in the original you got a lot more skill points essentially from bonuses anyhow) but that pooling into two main attributes severely weakened your character overall.
Combined with the fact that items that gave you multiple primary attributes were uncommon, meaning that you are further depleting your effectiveness.
So if they gave you 1, 2, 3, or 4 extra... it would just boil down to the same event that any point not put into your primary attribute is only diluting your overall combat effectiveness.
My personal viewpoint is they need to put in traits specifically geared towards "multiclassing" that ease the disadvantages of it... As well as weapons and gear... geared towards being Dex+Int, STR+DEX, STR+INT...
THOUGH maybe this game won't penalize you as much this time.
Note: I am aware going Major/Minor did work well. You could get away with only 12 intelligence if you weren't intending on going past say 1 aeromancy.
I am referring to Double Major (equal or near equal focus). Oh, nice Neonivek! Multiclassing traits and gear is huge. I'm just imagining plugging away being fairly weak for a while, waiting for that big trait payoff. It'd be a thrill. Hmm.. what would some believable multiclass traits and gear be?
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2016
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The issue isn't the amount of attribute points you get (and in the original you got a lot more skill points essentially from bonuses anyhow) but that pooling into two main attributes severely weakened your character overall.
Combined with the fact that items that gave you multiple primary attributes were uncommon, meaning that you are further depleting your effectiveness.
So if they gave you 1, 2, 3, or 4 extra... it would just boil down to the same event that any point not put into your primary attribute is only diluting your overall combat effectiveness. In D:OS on the higher difficulties, hybrids just didn't cut it. IMO. IOW they weren't a viable choice at all. What I'm arguing for is that going hybrid might still not be viable for anyone but the PC. It would only make the PC more effective. More effective as a single class character, too? Yes. But if you go past the point where you have to be single class just to get by, going hybrid actually has its advantages (in a 4 person party to boot). No 1 single character can duke it out without support in a party-based game, no matter how good he is at his class. I'm not sure I understand. If the game is calibrated so that the main character can go multiclass, while the rest of the party has fewer points, forcing them to stay single class to keep up, is there anything in the game you'd want that would keep the main character from also going single class and just being stronger than the rest of the party? (Am I getting you right?)
Last edited by Clutch; 24/08/16 03:54 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2009
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It's not that I disagree with the request, it's that I think making it is premature. We don't even know how many attribute points we actually get per level this game. From what I've heard about Memory and seen from pausing youtube videos, it already seems that we are getting more than the 0.5 ability points per level that D:OS 1 gave.
Pausing on one shot showed a tooltip saying that Memory is increased by 1 slot for every 3 points. It was 7 slots with 12 Memory. (The formula is Slots = 3 + (Memory * 3). There's no possibility that formula would work only getting the D:OS 1 standard of 0.5 attribute points/level, so it must be at least 3.
Some previews have indicated that some spells can take 10 or even 20 memory slots. If that's accurate, then there must be a lot more spare attribute points than in D:OS 1.
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Hybrids in D:OS 1 were certainly less powerful than pure builds, but the idea was to exchange power for versatility, a Hybrid could do more things than a pure character. In D:OS 2, Memory will probably be the thing which hurts Hybrids most of all, though.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2015
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The issue isn't the amount of attribute points you get (and in the original you got a lot more skill points essentially from bonuses anyhow) but that pooling into two main attributes severely weakened your character overall. This is the one central problem with multiclassing in D:OS, and it will absolutely still be present in D:OS2. It's possible they could introduce a special multiclassing skill (eg allowing you to use intelligence for melee weapons), but this would simply be an awkward patch on a broken system. The only way to allow true multiclassing would be to discard the primary attributes altogether. Use skill points and memory points as a limited resource. You can still create incentives for specialisation in order to encourage a class system without closing the door on multiclassing. Anyway, the idea that PCs will be stronger that companions is not at all in the spirit of the game. Remember that drop-in co-op will be a feature of the game. All 4 members of the party will be equally important.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2015
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Hybrids in D:OS 1 were certainly less powerful than pure builds, but the idea was to exchange power for versatility, a Hybrid could do more things than a pure character. Which of course had two huge issues! 1) Mages are extremely versatile as it is and could cover anything they needed to do. and 2) You took action economy damage as well So in the end... Pure classes were in fact more versatile. This isn't even including that a lot of the skill sets didn't combine too too well. It always felt more like you were compensating, rather then making an impressive build. Which is sad because I swear some spells were MADE for crossclass.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2013
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I'm not sure I understand. If the game is calibrated so that the main character can go multiclass, while the rest of the party has fewer points, forcing them to stay single class to keep up, is there anything in the game you'd want that would keep the main character from also going single class and just being stronger than the rest of the party? (Am I getting you right?) No, there's nothing to keep the PC from going single class and being very good at it. It's a choice - between being very efficient as a single class character and efficient as a multi-class character. Yeah I hadn't considered drop-in multiplayer. That would be problematic. Maybe... a Lone Wolf trait that specifically gives twice the ability points but no other bonuses?
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