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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Apr 2011
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Pretty much agree with everything with Neonivek. Doesn't help enemies appear to get like 12AP per round (though maybe they also suffer the random get full AP bug?) so you get 4 arrows on your roof which you can never EVER pull off.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
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I think adding per turn armor regen to the respective combat ability bonus would alleviate some of the issues here. In addition, we could also use a decrease in the number of CCs or make stun or frozen not full on CC. Currently pretty much every water or electric spell that does damage also will CC. Seems a little excessive
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member
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member
Joined: Apr 2014
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the new system is unusual and original, though it gets some time getting used to it. BUT I think some high level skills should debuff through shields, e.g. over 9000 armor doesnt save you being knocked down by an earthquake etc. We see Oil though, which slows even those with armor on.
I think the system is just quite not totally finished. Well, things like overpower exist. If your physical armor rating is higher than an enemy's, it completely breaks their physical armor and knocks them down. So that's very much already part of the game.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: May 2014
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The new Armor system creates a LOT of new problems and while it eliminates old problems it also removes one of the best parts of the first game...
Zone Control is kind of useless now... Which was one of the largest parts of the first game. Enemies also almost always have advantageous positions against you. AND almost all enemies have the movement capacity of the heavens. As well armor can ignore several surfaces even if they decide to walk through (and you RARELY get an opportunity to Zone control AFTER an enemy crosses the distance...)
Worse in a way are enemies that are missing armor/magicarmor because they are "balanced" to basically kill you in one hit. I hope you specifically had CC against them!
As well while the enemy can have substantial armor... You are always running around in what amounts to tinfoil. I've never seen armor or magic armor survive a single around of a single enemy attacking you. Especially annoying when you are fighting multiple opponents with large AoE CC attacks (which is oddly... not uncommon in this game)
Then after armor or magic armor is gone... CC kind of hits the state of being almost TOO strong because everyone has absolutely no resistance against you. Ohh but lucky for you that everything now has LONG cool downs.
Then there are abilities with weak effects (or... "Not that bad" effects) that never happen because of armor. So you could remove the opponents armor and use it... But that is a waste because once armor is removed then anything EXCEPT CC is useful.
-Bleed is the biggest one. Would make the moves decent if it didn't rely on removing armor.
So in the end instead of experimenting with builds and interesting combinations like I could in the first game... I kind of have to lug around the powerful combos from the getgo and stick with them religiously.
It needs some serious balancing. Is what I am saying. Though EA just started so of course there are going to be bugs and kinks they have to work out.
Which do I prefer? I actually prefer the old system... to the currently implemented armor system
But I'd prefer the new system be balanced correctly. You make a good point. I never thought that certainly some effects were less useful once armor was gone. Prioritizing CC with high damage, or just straight damage, would be best at that point. I also like your suggestion about making bleed and other certain debuffs have effect even through armor. It would make it more valuable as an opener, to whittle down health before you can get through the armors.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2016
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Ya thats one of the things I've noticed more as I play. Early in a battle CC is more difficult to pull off. Later in a battle when everyones armor is gone its basically 100% success with CC. Which makes CC spam worse then DOS1 later and for longer battles.
Add to the fact that theirs plenty of abilities with CC.
For example in when leaving fort joy where the paladin is 3 of my guys got bunched up with 3 of theirs. The ground was wet from a combo of Lohses ice spell and fire to melt it. Somebody did some electrical attack causing all 6 guys to be stunned for multiple rounds.
My character was a knight going after 2 archers so they didn't get stunned. But the point is I don't think the new system is perfect.
But rather then somebody resisting the stun at some point they all sat there continuing to be in stun round after round which is bad.
So cool this discussion early on is good since some re balancing needs to be done.
Also i wish for realism shields would block.
Last edited by johnny5111; 20/09/16 01:13 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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I think we need a bit more information.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
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Personally, I think Armors should only be as effective as their remaining percentage.
I.e.: If I have 50% armor left, an attack that deals 100 damage would deal 50 to armor, and 50 to health, regardless of if there's enough armor left to fully absorb the attack.
This should work similarly for status chances: if there's a 100% chance to get stunned, and I have 50% of my Magic Armor left, the chance I'm stunned should be 50%, not 0%.
Part of this is also in the attacks/abilities themselves though, for a system like that to work, there should both be abilities that have a lower chance to apply their effect, and ones that break above 100%(a 200% chance becomes 100% chance at 50% armor, ect.)
Also, about shields: they should at the very least get a Warfare tree ability that let's the user restore their armor(s), without dipping into Geomancer.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2016
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Hello everyone, just joined the topic from a link a subscriber sent me.
I have already finished 5 runs of DOS 2 and I'll agree that some balancing may be required but I do enjoy the new system better than the old. I would rather rely on a nonRNG system especially when Honor mode comes around.
I found that the fights were more enjoyable in this state than where I could roll right through the game with using a single mage pulling a fight with Hail or Storm.
I have played DOS 1 a ton also and found a very little challenge when using any form of CC. I'm also counting Mage Ranger or Warrior CC. Since I have done a Barbarian only build.
CC isn't hard to accomplish in this state you just have to damage the Vitality stat. Even if your opponent has 50 armor left you can try to Cripple him if you think you'll do 51 Physical Damage.
I think the only fight that caused issues for me on my second attempt is that last fight seeing as some opponent are 3 levels higher than us and that blinding light pull was pretty deadly.
I think that keeping this system while balancing strength and weakness's of enemies will make a better end game Tactical RPG.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2015
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The thing to remember is that the biggest problem with the new system isn't just that it's easy to exploit, but that exploiting it is very boring.
On lower difficulties, it's easy to win battles by focusing on pumping out a lot of damage. That's fine as long as you don't get hit by too many CCs.
But when you really want to push the tactical limits of the system, then you need to hold back on damage and focus on CC at the expense of all else. That means, for example, not casting your awesome fireball spell because you're worried the water will evaporate and you won't be able to stun the enemy again.
It really is an easy exploit. Electrified water does damage if you try to walk through it. If you cast rain to make a massive pubddle, electrify the pool of water, and then retreat, then the enemies will just walk through the puddle until their magic armour is depleted and they're stunned. Then you just have to keep the water electrified while you slowly finish them off one at a time. It's easy, but boring.
I haven't fully played through the Early Access yet, but I've already used this tactic to defeat enemies that should have been WAY out of my league.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
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Magic armor is a good thing, but only to mitigate magic dmg, CC shall have their own resists. It's way too easy to CC someone, once you destroyed their magic armor.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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It really is an easy exploit... It's easy, but boring...
What you just described is a flaw in the AI not really the system itself. Magic armor is a good thing, but only to mitigate magic dmg, CC shall have their own resists. It's way too easy to CC someone, once you destroyed their magic armor. So the solution is to make sure that mobs and players have a way to somehow replenish their magic armor/physical armor; perhaps add in a defend option that regenerates a portion of it or lean on the usage of consumables.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2015
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What you just described is a flaw in the AI not really the system itself. There's nothing wrong with the AI. It would be about as effective against a human opponent. Assuming that I don't stun-lock the opponent on the first turn, the opponent has 3 options: 1. Advance towards me, take damage, lose magic armour, enter stun-lock. 2. Stay still and use any attacks he can do without moving (meanwhile I can focus all my attacks on any characters that still have magic armour until I can force him into a stun-lock). 3. Reply with the same strategy, and turn the entire battlefield into a wet mess, and we constantly electrify the water until one of us successfully stun-locks the other. Of course, some characters have moves that allow them to charge/teleport, and these can complicate the strategy a little. But once they're stun-locked, it's over.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Apr 2016
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- There is no damage mitigation anymore, only extra health against specific kinds of damage, even blocking is removed
Blocking is NOT removed. I had a shield with 1% block chance on my fighter in an online coop game. Sure 1% is just plain funny, but I guess it should get much better at higher levels.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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What you just described is a flaw in the AI not really the system itself. There's nothing wrong with the AI. It would be about as effective against a human opponent. Assuming that I don't stun-lock the opponent on the first turn, the opponent has 3 options: 1. Advance towards me, take damage, lose magic armour, enter stun-lock. 2. Stay still and use any attacks he can do without moving (meanwhile I can focus all my attacks on any characters that still have magic armour until I can force him into a stun-lock). 3. Reply with the same strategy, and turn the entire battlefield into a wet mess, and we constantly electrify the water until one of us successfully stun-locks the other. Of course, some characters have moves that allow them to charge/teleport, and these can complicate the strategy a little. But once they're stun-locked, it's over. 1. Why am I advancing and not withdrawing to a more advantageous position or at least neutral position? 2. What if I respond by stacking magic armor, replenishing it mid way, and then chasing you down? 3. What if I do that except with teleports? 4. What if I can't be stun locked? 5. What if the order of initiative is mixed and I have pieces moving before all your pieces do? You act like the AI is playing perfectly or that a human won't figure out a solution; no, the AI blatantly runs through fields of fire without a care because it's an oversight or the goal isn't to completely butcher you (until the difficulty gets ramped up) at classic. Your game plan makes a lot of assumptions that may not hold up later and definitely will run into issues the higher the power level goes.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2015
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2. What if I respond by stacking magic armor, replenishing it mid way, and then chasing you down? Typically you don't do this because enemies can focus on either one or can alternate themselves. 4. What if I can't be stun locked? Then your poorly designed?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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2. What if I respond by stacking magic armor, replenishing it mid way, and then chasing you down? Typically you don't do this because enemies can focus on either one or can alternate themselves. 4. What if I can't be stun locked? Then your poorly designed? No, I am a boss mob with a specific mechanic in mind or I have some buff running that gives me immunity to certain things that you didn't dispel etc. etc. It's funny how you say I don't do this at all when I generally do because I have enough magic armor to do it with (or the resources to deal with it) and more than enough to trigger warlord after reaching you. Everything depends on context which includes resources and game plan. The AI doesn't typically do any of this nor is it on even gear with players because it's not the AI's job to make it a living nightmare - that's a pretty crappy narrative.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2015
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Why do you stack magic armor at behest of physical armor?
Or are you using different language?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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There's only one point in time where I had to either reposition or stack physical which was in the encounter at the side entrance at Fort Joy. The captain does a battering ram charge right off the bat and I didn't have enough initiative to deal with it.
All the other times it's to face roll through elemental effects like the Radeza (or whatever her name is)'s blood rain + lightning or dealing with Blinding Radiance from Alexander. Also, it allows me to nuke myself without much of a care.
I don't really need to deal with archers because I put a premium on positioning and they usually take about one turn to properly position. In some cases, early on for example, I ended up eating a knock down arrow but those were few and far between since Red was in front and because his initiative was so low I could still recover him by spending 1 AP to bring him back up from his knocked down state.
If I was fighting humans I would consider a different layout depending on the opponent.
My game plan with a reasonably balanced party (almost all premades with no stacking) was to finish any given combat in one round; the best I could do in the last fight was kill off Alexander with one character and the Magister Wizard with another while repositioning to high ground without using exploits. All other encounters generally ended on my turn.
Last edited by Limz; 20/09/16 03:36 PM. Reason: game plan context
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Aug 2016
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I am always in favor of alternative systems that take RNG out of the picture. RNG is needed in certain scenarios, but I feel as though the new system of status effects being countered by armor values is better than DOS1's.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2016
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I played some arena matches in a 3v1 AI match and won. Magic armor and Physical Armor were depleted really early in the fight.
I had a warrior, ranger and mage vs a combination of 9 rogues,rangers,warrior's and mages.
The AI seemed to keep attacking me with Fire spells on my warrior while he was blessed which kept healing him under the formula that the fired turned to Holy fire and healed him. So armor aside I think blessed might be what to look into also.
I think it is nice that you can't guarantee CC on the first turn with the armor system, I think further on you will be able to better heal armors. Some abilities like Oil ignores armors. To me, it just adds to the tactical system.
Much like if a static cloud or an electrified puddle disappears after one person walks in and gets stunned now.
Or the AI will look for a way around fire if it can, the key point is if it can.
It would be interesting to test this out on a tactician or honor mode setting where they will have 20% better stats if the same as original sin.
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