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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2016
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Yes I would also like to see some examples of these "actual sexist racists" hating on games just because they have women or black people in them. Because that sounds just like the sort of bullshit deflections feminists claim is the cause for movies like ghost busters failing, when the simple truth is that people simply did not like the movie because it was a shitty movie.
Who is actually saying games with women are bad? Because all I have ever heard is the claims by ideologically motivated people that its happening.
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old hand
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Well there is the whole Life is Strange Controversy. But I have a feeling that no matter what I pull up, it won't be sufficient evidence. So I'll ask you. What SPECIFICALLY is "evidence" in this case? Let us get this down. Who is actually saying games with women are bad? Here is the thing... No one is saying that... directly. Typically they either project elements that aren't there (So a game featuring a female protagonist is ABOUT feminism.) or they take a single element that was mostly able to be ignored and blow it out or proportion as if it was thrust upon them in their face. Which the oddest thing is... Even if what they said was true. What is exactly wrong with a game ABOUT being a woman?
Last edited by Neonivek; 01/10/16 02:27 PM.
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There is NO issue with showing a little skin There would be no issue if male armor did show as much skin. Because all armors would then be non-plausible.
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Well there is the whole Life is Strange Controversy. But I have a feeling that no matter what I pull up, it won't be sufficient evidence. So I'll ask you. What SPECIFICALLY is "evidence" in this case? Let us get this down. Who is actually saying games with women are bad? Here is the thing... No one is saying that... directly. Typically they either project elements that aren't there (So a game featuring a female protagonist is ABOUT feminism.) or they take a single element that was mostly able to be ignored and blow it out or proportion as if it was thrust upon them in their face. Which the oddest thing is... Even if what they said was true. What is exactly wrong with a game ABOUT being a woman? This is definitely neither the time nor place to have a breakdown discussion on sexism and yours or others views on its existence in gaming; it has nothing to do with this game currently. (Trying to bring up minute details and blow them up and make the game about it is in bad taste and will only get people shutting you out - nevermind the fact that plenty of people here have made point-by-point rebuttals concerning sexism and pointed remarks about why such political "feminism" and ideologies, for that is what they are, they are not moral truths, is not appreciated in any form within the forums) Kindly drop the issue. If you have character model suggestions or something, sure. BUT! Don't bring in sexism, racism, or any such thing. You're trying to draw attention to issues that don't exist in a specific context. Hell, even some of the female members have gone out of their way to point out how they disagree with those bringing it up and stated plainly that they dislike others trying to stand up for them and inform them of when they're being disrespected as if they can't see and identify that for themselves.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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You are quite correct, it would be hard to "prove" what peoples motivations are for criticizing a game, and yet you feel you can confidently lable pin it on misogyny.
But tell me, if people ought to listen to your assertion that misogyny is obviously the reason because you feel really confident about that, why should they not then listen to the next person who feels so confident about something it doesn't need to be backed up? See the problem? You are straight forwardly suggesting that people should just be gullible and go with whatever they hear. Now if you really believe there are lots of gamer misogynists out there, would you not want people to be a bit vigilant about what claims and ideas they take on board? I mean what if someone ends up talking to more dastardly misogynists than righteous feminists, then they too would end up dastardly misogynists.
Or people could... You know, apply some critical thinking, and not just believe any claim presented without evidence.
But it would be interesting to hear if you think gamers have just recently become sexist pigs who hate women in games, because I seem to remember beloved games with women stretching back decades, and before that for an even longer time movies with female protagonists and heroes, without people hating them for that fact.
Lets have a look at a recent example. The blowback for the new Ghostbusters movie was labled by a lot of people as misogyny, but that would make the new Star Wars movie hard to explain. If people just hate seeing female leads, why would it not affect both movies equally? Could it be that it was something else about one of those movie that people didn't like, but a lot of feminist minded people really love to spin the narrative of misogyny and patriarchy around everything they do?
Gamers don't hate women, movie fans don't hate women, in fact the narrative that women have been historically hated is incredibly ignorant of any context.
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Kindly drop the issue. If you have character model suggestions or something, sure. BUT! Don't bring in sexism, racism, or any such thing. You're trying to draw attention to issues that don't exist in a specific context. Actually those issues exist. Our society as a whole is sexist, take a look at wages differences for example. Video games are no exception to that.
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enthusiast
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Wow, now we are going really offtopic. ^^
The wage gap however is not caused by sexism, and the only reason someone would say that is that they have just heard someone say it but never bothered to look at the actual data.
If you would like to have a discussion about it I'd be happy to oblige, but this thread is not the place for it. If you really care about that particular issue please PM me.
(and if you don't care, don't try to fling it around like some sort of argument in a thread not even remotely connected to economics.)
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Kindly drop the issue. If you have character model suggestions or something, sure. BUT! Don't bring in sexism, racism, or any such thing. You're trying to draw attention to issues that don't exist in a specific context. Actually those issues exist. Our society as a whole is sexist, take a look at wages differences for example. Video games are no exception to that. Um, wage gap -> really? You want to go there? .....Just...No. Context -> this game- > issue not existing. Also, I think I've been pretty civil: respectfully, step back, and stop trying to turn this into a conversation concerning you're political beliefs. Stating such beliefs as "facts" will not make people more inclined to listen or be civil. This is EA for D:OS 2....why don't you post about the stat system, or the music, or literally anything else that has a mechanical component of the game? EDIT: I've made it a point to avoid the SJW label but youre coming dangerously close
Last edited by aj0413; 01/10/16 04:24 PM.
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Um, wage gap -> really? You want to go there? .....Just...No.
Context -> this game- > issue not existing.
This game is made by people, who are (as us) products of the same society. So it is part of the context. There has been plenty of research made about male and female representation, and how they harm business (don't believe me, look it up). In his last blog post Swen wonders why there are so few women playing DOS, well that might be part of the answer. http://www.lar.net/2015/09/07/where-are-the-women/PS : if having studied the data is being a SJW, well I don't really care, it still harms business.
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stranger
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Right, so.. that happened. Anywho, back to the actual topic and gamer feedback:
Elves and their armor. It's weird, it's leafy, it defies a lot of conventional common sense. But last time I checked-- so do Larian's renditions of elves, lorewise. The race totally has it's own bizarre vibe and feel, and I totally dig it.
This is just the beginning, right? I'm pretty danged sure there is going to be tons of new armor models to love or loathe in the future as well. So at least for this particular user here, I like what they are doing, and look forward to the gradual reveal of the rest of what they have in store for us.
Also, as long as Larian gives us the proper tools to do the job-- which they have given every indication they will do so -- if one is so incensed they could always mod or tweak the armor sets on their own time. Theoretically, they could then release the mod out there to the general public, where like minded individuals could enjoy or even improve up the fruits of their efforts. Just a thought.
Slightly related and borderline on topic: It may be borrowing a trick from several not to be mentioned online and offline games out there, but if it truly is that big a deal, why not just add a 'style' or wardrobe function/ability/perk/shiny thing?
Don't like the sight of the Leafy Thong of Heroic Cabbage when you zoom in uncomfortably close on a model in a tactical rpg? Don something clunkier instead, and game on.
The ability could 'magically' give your particular adventurer the cosmetic appearance of a previously owned armor set of your choosing, and let you tweak your stylish hero types as they save (or break) the world, whilst upgrading as you go. But to be fair I am a bit of an unapologetic fashion whor.. *cough* -inclined gamer, and can lose massive chunks of time making a character swagger in a particular look.
I apologize for nothing.
Also, loved the last game, looking greatly towards the next. Good stuff, Larian.
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Um, wage gap -> really? You want to go there? .....Just...No.
Context -> this game- > issue not existing.
This game is made by people, who are (as us) products of the same society. So it is part of the context. There has been plenty of research made about male and female representation, and how they harm business (don't believe me, look it up). In his last blog post Swen wonders why there are so few women playing DOS, well that might be part of the answer. http://www.lar.net/2015/09/07/where-are-the-women/PS : if having studied the data is being a SJW, well I don't really care, it still harms business. What's making you come close to being called an SJW is when you feel the need to crusade a topic concerning perceived social justice when others, myself included, are more than willing to just drop it as long as you frame your feedback without political motivations. Yes, I'm familiar with Swen's post and I'm also familiar with the feedback he got with it. I could break out data and charts and factoids and so on; I am a moderately intelligent human being. And we *could* have that debate. I've done it often enough with friends. But you are neither my friend, or even an acquaintance, nor is this helping anything: Please just drop it. Say you want more armor models and that you think it'd draw more people to the game. I can agree with that. I can endorse that. Leave it at that. @Hero4Rent You bring up good points concerning modding and/or creating an option to help control how things look. I wonder though how hard it'd be to mod in armor visuals? Wouldn't it be easier to add an option to turn off armor morphing?
Last edited by aj0413; 01/10/16 05:23 PM.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
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Wow .... was not expecting this to explode that bad. I feel like an accidental troll now.
I hadn't noticed that some armor has a more wood look to it, as some of the higher tier physical armor I put on looked more leafy than the stuff I was wearing originally. But this is a good point that there are more armor out there than we have seen.
I also wonder, does armor appearance vary by starting class in addition to race? Looking back through the character creation menus, the appearance of some classes looks very different. For example, the elf battle-mage appears in more traditional robes (almost like the human style), the cleric has large shouldered wooden armor that looks really cool, the witch has very poofy leafy stuff which is awesome in its own way, and the wayfarer has a very stripped down lean leafy look. Are these just representations of different armor sets or does the appearance change by class?
If so, this may give a simpler option than designing new models or a full style equip set like Hero4Rent suggests: a class/motif toggle that lets you pick your armor appearance regardless of starting class. E.g., you could start as a wayfarer, but select to have armor that looks like a cleric's bulkier wood variant.
At the end of the day, these aesthetic points should take a back seat to the game mechanics. The game looks amazing and I would rather Larian work on refining the various gameplay, character progression and combat systems.
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Pretty sure armor look within a race has to do with the physical/magical components and the type of armor. Robes, leather armor, mage gear, and plate all morph differently on the same elf. I'm not too sure on how some of the late game gear would look in comparison to early though. I noticed in D:OS EE gear appearance would change with level
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
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Kindly drop the issue. If you have character model suggestions or something, sure. BUT! Don't bring in sexism, racism, or any such thing. You're trying to draw attention to issues that don't exist in a specific context. Actually those issues exist. Our society as a whole is sexist, take a look at wages differences for example. Video games are no exception to that. The wages thing has been disproven 100 times over. There is even a youtube video made by a woman that will teach you this. Just shows how ill informed these arguments are.
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journeyman
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Joined: Feb 2014
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Getting back to the original post, the problem is that if you want to have a particular type of armour then you end up being restricted to the type of defence and possibly the degree of defence it provides.
If the modding tools are sufficiently powerful and have the right features then those who do not like the armour design, for whatever reason, will be able to do something about it. It is interesting to see that variations in armour in the character creation screen for elves goes from skimpy to full body coverage. This suggests that such a solution may indeed be easy to implement.
Someone must have spiked her senna pod drink!
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What's making you come close to being called an SJW is when you feel the need to crusade a topic concerning perceived social justice when others, myself included, are more than willing to just drop it as long as you frame your feedback without political motivations. I lol'ed. All that because I believe the people making the game don't leave in a cave in some parrallel world.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Sep 2016
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Why does /pol/ and reddit have such a strong presence here, ffs take your MRA bullshit somewhere else
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2015
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The spoiler is on someone calling me out O-o. Feel free to ignore it. This is definitely neither the time nor place to have a breakdown discussion on sexism and yours or others views on its existence in gaming;
aj your being really unfair to me in this case. People are arguing against modifying the elf armor on the grounds that it would be SJW or Feminist which directly relates to sexism. I am arguing against calling refuting something on the grounds that it is SJW and feminist. Also sorry... I wish this chat had spoilers... Or wait does it? --- But fine, back to the topic... Though there aren't really any compelling arguments for why Elf armor shouldn't be changed... so I guess I don't have anything left to say.
Last edited by Neonivek; 01/10/16 09:24 PM.
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Why does /pol/ and reddit have such a strong presence here, ffs take your MRA bullshit somewhere else One, nobody here has identified as such. Two, at best all you have is people not wanting feminist conversations about sexism. If people saying they don't want to discuss politics in a game forum and disagreeing with you makes them the your perceived enemy, then you, sir, have issues. Opinions have spectrum, last I checked, and you trying to point fingers and draw black&white lines is petty and immature....and uninformed. Three, Larian doesn't exist in a vacuum, but the context of game feedback should. If I asked someone about the technical details of an Iphone, I don't want their opinion on how it compares to an Android. I want run times and UI feedback. Four, not everyone shooting down feminist points concerning sexism did it by simply going "yar yar SJW." Some of us, myself among them, have offered middle ground ideas, compromises, rebutted point-for-point and so on. Even some of the women have come out and said this was ridiculous....so are they an enemy of women now, too? At this point, it's ridiculous that you want to keep this going. It's ridiculous that you feel the need. It's ridiculous that you can't lay down your swords of justice and crusader attitude, get off your high horse, and discuss the damn game without making it about politics. How many fucking times do I, or someone else, have to point out that saying you want more options is fine. Saying you want more options cause [insert any reason here] and then saying [insert subjective statement on my stance on a social issue here] and backing it up with [insert this has nothing to do with the game but these are what I think is wrong with society and because society pisses me off I feel the need to be an activist for change so things get 'better' by my relative definition and I want this mirrored here]. Last I checked, none of you even made valid points worth great consideration beyond "I'm uncomfortable because this doesn't align with my beliefs on how the world should be in reality." You even went so far as to bring up the 'Wage Gap'? Like really? That mythical leprechaun that's been shot down so much it must be immortal and masochistic with how often it pops up? What's next: Rape culture? Man spreading/sitting? Body image? I mean cause obviously all of this has some indirect connection with this. You know what else? Evolution, global warming, and capitalism and socialism, economics, consumer laws....I can go on. All of this also has a tangential indirect connection. Hell, mythology could be brought in. Notice a pattern? People don't. It's unwarranted and unwanted. It just creates side tangents that have nothing to do with anything in any constructive format. Fucks sake, I had the decency to avoid labeling. I just warned you that you might be taking things too far and too kindly back the fuck off cause it was getting rant worth....Fuck me, I did rant didn't I? Well, Shit. *points finger* This is your fault. Merlin's Hot Pants! Feminism is a very sore point with me politically...as is most socially "progressive" movements at the moment. I at least had the fucking decency to not try to make this into a that debate though. I even offered a motherfucking optional suggestion I wouldve thought you and everyone that agrees with you might like. One that might've even gained traction. Better yet, others have offered some suggestions as well in he same vain. And yet things keep swinging back around to this political shit. Do you feel some deep abiding need to do this? To be acknowledged for your fanatical faith in what you prescribe to believe and preach it? Do you sometimes wish you were born during times of adversity so that you may mount some great crusade? Where exactly does this need to constantly find problems with the world around you and label enemies and draw lines in the sand come from? Do you even read the articles centered around how traditional, old time feminists and liberals view the current generation and their craziness? It's not pretty I assure you. Actually, don't answer. While the study into the human psyche is interesting, I feel no inclination at this time to crack open that abyss and stare that monster in the face. EDIT: One last thing, none of you have raised any points concerning the issues with male characters......Odd that. You'd almost think you have a clear bias. *Slow Exhale* *Deep Breath In* *Calm Breath Out* Sorry, for the side rant peoples; my patience was simply worn thin. Rant about the politics poisoning the thread(s)......I triggered  Sorry, for that. Had to get out at least once. Hopefully spoiler tag makes it so it doesn't bother anyone.
Last edited by aj0413; 01/10/16 10:04 PM.
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addict
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I'm sorry if it comes off that way, but I've simply lost my patience so I'm just trying to end this discussion on grounds of politics.
Some people have done what you mentioned (which isn't okay as not all concerned parties deserve such labels or being simply ignored despite however they identify), but a few others, such as myself, did go out of our way to mention other reasons why the style is the way it is or how this relates to the sexism and isn't really a probelm in this specific case argument without resorting to name calling. People have tried constructive discussion.
Some of us have even endorsed adding more options or how more options might be better. And I gave a couple I though would be amusing and awesome.
At this point, the it's just getting ridiculous how much politics has become a focused discussion here.
EDIT: And no, I don't think anyone inherently disagrees with the idea to add more armor options or modify the elf one. I kinda feel the same. But people have raised the point that we havent seen everything concerning the armor models (remember how they changed in D:OS with level?) and should wait a little bit maybe before being able to confidently say we want/need more or change.
There's also mods to fix the issue (as someone has mentioned) or the fact that the developers do *have* limited resources and priority must be defined for each aspect.
Response to Neonivek Spoilered it so not everyone has to see this stuff at this point ...also, thanks, Neonivek, lol didn't know how to do that till just now.
Last edited by aj0413; 01/10/16 10:08 PM.
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