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Originally Posted by EinTroll
I want to thank SlamPow for offering a pretty insightful bit on game AI.

Now, while I can openly admit to being intellectually inferior, I do have one perspective about the game that I would share:

If we're talking about the single player, the campaign itself, then the goal of the game is not to offer the player a strong set of mechanics to toy around with. The game has to deliver on several aspects, mostly focused on the story it presents via the medium it uses.
So, I would argue that the difficulty of each fight should be in fact tailored to the context of the fight.
So, for instance, we're fighting a pretty militarized organization. The context here would be that they should be good at team tactics, not necessarily great individual combatants.
Another case is the voidwoken. Unless we're talking about a rather smart void commander, they should be largely disorganized, but individually strong.

I can agree that in the arena mode, things should be balanced around a proportional result to the understanding and use of systems of each player.

My idea would be to make a good balance in arena and then translate that into single player with contextual adjustments. We already have an easy contextual adjustment via stats, but the adjustment I am most interested in is in the AI that runs for each separate encounter. But I am by no means anything close to a game designer, so I may be spouting worst practices for all I know.


Separate from that, I want to note that even if you use elevated language, calling someone stupid is still an insult, particularly when the target is not necessarily stupid, but misinformed/misguided. Insults do not make one a better person.
Yes, I do prefer it when there's less hostility in the air. Not saying that as part of the green name to the left, as I do not moderate, I clean spam.


*sigh* I'm sorry. I don't mean to insult anyone. I know I can condescend at times, and it is quite inappropriate of me. I am willing to openly admit, that I regret being so mean. Noone here is stupid, Qiox is at least trying to bring discussion to the table, and I should be much more respectful of him and that fact. I am easily provoked, and I recognize it - But! I am human, and the most I can do is strive to improve, which I do.

Also, yeah, seperate levels of AI sounds like a great idea. But on Tactician Mode, I would still like to see Voidwoken use tactics against me. Wouldn't it be cool if they had some sort of hivemind advantage that let them coordinate in an unnatural way? grin

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I was talking about the harsh diminishing effects per level. At least I read, that this doesn't not work as intended, but I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by EinTroll
If we're talking about the single player, the campaign itself, then the goal of the game is not to offer the player a strong set of mechanics to toy around with. The game has to deliver on several aspects, mostly focused on the story it presents via the medium it uses.
So, I would argue that the difficulty of each fight should be in fact tailored to the context of the fight.
So, for instance, we're fighting a pretty militarized organization. The context here would be that they should be good at team tactics, not necessarily great individual combatants.
Another case is the voidwoken. Unless we're talking about a rather smart void commander, they should be largely disorganized, but individually strong.


What gets into my mind imediatly in need for a tweak:
- Paladin Cork freezing an enemie and himself with a grenade.
- One of the mages in the huge boss fight, attacking with his fire element stuff someone who it immune to fire thanks to Phoenix dive.

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@SlamPow
Should never regret being human ;P

Embrace your inner bastard. Acknowledge it. Define it. Take leadership of it. Wear it as a badge of honor that your so up front and honest with both yourself and others.

We're human; beautifully, disgustingly, chaotically human.

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Actually that does work exactly as intended apparently. Someone took data that showed that counter intuitively damage does go up as you level even if it looks like it goes down

The diminishing effects are apparently to maintain a consistent difficulty? I think

Last edited by aj0413; 05/10/16 03:35 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413
@SlamPow
Should never regret being human ;P

Embrace your inner bastard. Acknowledge it. Define it. Take leadership of it. Wear it as a badge of honor that your so up front and honest with both yourself and others.

We're human; beautifully, disgustingly, chaotically human.


Thanks man, I appreciate that. Still gonna work on being nicer, though, as it's something I aspire to.

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Originally Posted by SlamPow
Originally Posted by aj0413
@SlamPow
Should never regret being human ;P

Embrace your inner bastard. Acknowledge it. Define it. Take leadership of it. Wear it as a badge of honor that your so up front and honest with both yourself and others.

We're human; beautifully, disgustingly, chaotically human.


Thanks man, I appreciate that. Still gonna work on being nicer, though, as it's something I aspire to.


Bah, majority of people don't deserve nice

Life has a tendency to beat down on those who are too nice

Last edited by aj0413; 05/10/16 03:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by aj0413
Actually that does work exactly as intended apparently. Someone took data that showed that counter intuitively damage does go up as you level even if it looks like it goes down

The diminishing effects are apparently to maintain a consistent difficulty? I think


Damage goes up because you get better stuff, not because you level? Having 23 Int thanks to equipment of course helps with damage. Even tough the damage modificator is still negative.

Skills like Warfare and ranger anyway profit mostly from weapons and not stats.

Having Wits of 15 but only a initiative bonus of 2 makes the skill pretty pointless. Our archer has 17 wits and the same benefit.

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Don't question me about it man, I'm simply parroting what was confirmed

Apparently Lar responded about the stat system explained it just looks backwards or some such?? O.o

The data was when someone wanted to see exactly how the numbers worked out

It's all confusing to me honestly

Last edited by aj0413; 05/10/16 03:50 AM.
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I wasn't targeting you specifically (SlamPow) with the comment on hostility, sorry for not making it clear. I'm no saint myself, I just keep things to myself.

But that is utterly besides the point of the topic, so I shall let you people get back to interesting discussion. I might drop in if I find something else to share an opinion about.


Unless otherwise specified, just an opinion or simple curiosity.
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Originally Posted by EinTroll
I wasn't targeting you specifically (SlamPow) with the comment on hostility, sorry for not making it clear. I'm no saint myself, I just keep things to myself.

But that is utterly besides the point of the topic, so I shall let you people get back to interesting discussion. I might drop in if I find something else to share an opinion about.


Oh, alrighty. I'll still try to improve on it, though. No sense in stagnating!

Drop in anytime, man! =D

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Well.....things have become super tame in the forums now that there's no sexism war or armor system war going on at the moment.....? Man, that calm after the storm

Holy cow jizz, people are actually being nice to each other now smirk

Last edited by aj0413; 05/10/16 03:59 AM.
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At level 6 I need 23 Int for a magic damage bonus of 3%, at level 8 I need 28 Int for a damage bonus of 4%. So I need 5 points of Int to keep the intellectual damage bonus for 2 levels. The only stat that seems to improve while leveling up seems to be Constitution +17 per point at 6 and +22 at 8.

If you don't find good items, you damage will just stagnate or even get worse? Only regarding you stats and not bonus damage from improving mage skills.

By the way I'm not asking you, just trying to explain what I am concerned about.

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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
At level 6 I need 23 Int for a magic damage bonus of 3%, at level 8 I need 28 Int for a damage bonus of 4%. So I need 5 points of Int to keep the intellectual damage bonus for 2 levels. The only stat that seems to improve while leveling up seems to be Constitution +17 per point at 6 and +22 at 8.

If you don't find good items, you damage will just stagnate or even get worse? Only regarding you stats and not bonus damage from improving mage skills.

By the way I'm not asking you, just trying to explain what I am concerned about.


The damage of skills actually goes up per level, so the reducing damage from INT balances out.

Mouse over the damage of your abilities, then level up and do it again. You'll notice it always increases.

The only time this doesn't apply with Wits. Wits just gets straight up worse as you level, which I find silly.

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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
At level 6 I need 23 Int for a magic damage bonus of 3%, at level 8 I need 28 Int for a damage bonus of 4%. So I need 5 points of Int to keep the intellectual damage bonus for 2 levels. The only stat that seems to improve while leveling up seems to be Constitution +17 per point at 6 and +22 at 8.

If you don't find good items, you damage will just stagnate or even get worse? Only regarding you stats and not bonus damage from improving mage skills.

By the way I'm not asking you, just trying to explain what I am concerned about.


Everyone is concerned about it *shrug* It's a broken system in the sense that it's just really really bad at creating the feeling of progress when you level up.

That's why the devs promised to change it. It's explained better in the quote I posted

@SlamPow
Huh? So that's how it works out in the end.....the hell? Why the hell would an attack get better when you don't level the related stat. That's backwards -_- Skills should scale according to stat...that makes sense. It's the only thing that needs to make sense

Last edited by aj0413; 05/10/16 04:11 AM.
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Just checked:
At level 1 it tells you, 1 point of Int will give you 15% more damage. At level 8 the information tells you, you will get 2% per point. And you have a damage bonus of 15% with 13 Int. Down from 15% to 2% in 7 Level. So at Level 10 every point of Int will give you close to nothing additional? There are said to be 25 levels at least, but at level 10 stats just start to mater nothing? That can't be intentional, at least I hope? If I turn from +15% with 13 Int to -6% at 23 Int, players will just feel trolled?

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Originally Posted by Kalrakh
Just checked:
At level 1 it tells you, 1 point of Int will give you 15% more damage. At level 8 the information tells you, you will get 2% per point. And you have a damage bonus of 15% with 13 Int. Down from 15% to 2% in 7 Level. So at Level 10 every point of Int will give you close to nothing additional? There are said to be 25 levels at least, but at level 10 stats just start to mater nothing? That can't be intentional, at least I hope? If I turn from +15% with 13 Int to -6% at 23 Int, players will just feel trolled?


Well if the combined power of skill damage and stat bonus/debuff is still relatively increasing to the last levels damage than that signifies I'mprovemt ', I guess. And then, You out this relevant to enemy damage taken proportionally.
If your just pumping one stat, you should notice an increase in percentage of enemy health/armor destroyed using the same attack at each level.

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Perhaps the spells will show you more damage, but I'm not sure. But your stats will tell you that your int value will give lower additional damage for every level and that every additional point of int is just like a drop on a hot stone. If this is intentional, I would rank it as one of the worst ideas ever. laugh

It like Wits telling you, that every point of Wits only gives you 0.3% at level 8.

So:
Level 6, Int 23 (4%), Geomancer 1: Fossil Strike 57-70 damage
Level 8, Int 27 (2%), Geomancer 1: Fossil Strike 87-107 damage

Estimation if Points put in Const instead of Int:
Level 8, Int 23 (-6%), Geomancer 1: Fossil Strike 80-99 damage & +88 HP

Last edited by Kalrakh; 05/10/16 04:49 AM. Reason: Added Fossil Strike analysis
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