Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General A thought exercise: Balance

I agree that Enrage i find troublesome, my biggest issue is how i often dont feel a need to get critical chance stat because i can either just enrage and have 100% or do backstabbing and have 100%.

My goal for balancing Enrage would be to give a purpose for you to put points into critical chance.

You could either do something like Darxim is suggesting, where you have a drawback that is reduced the more base critical chance you got.

Or i could see some more simple solution to it, one is to simply make it give 50% crit chance, that way it will not negate the base crit chance you got from stat, as 65% is better then 50% after all.

A second solution is to redo it a bit, have it more similar to the first game where it was 50% increased damage, 4% crit chance and -25% chance to hit, now those numbers could of course be adjusted so it focus more on critical chance, but i would like to see a drawback such as -% to hit or similar instead of the loss to dodge you get now, as only scoundrel really use dodge, partially marksman as well, but scoundrels use backstab so they have no real use for enrage, hence the dodge chance drawback is a very small drawback for those who actiully use Enrage.

I think with the new talent that gives spells 50% of your critical chance to the spells, so your spells can crit is a partial reasons as to why Larian may have tried a ability like Enrage that gives 100% crit chance, so that talent has a good combo to go along with, and i think that is great however if this is the case and Enrage is suppose to stay 100% crit chance, then it would need a more heavy drawback i feel.

So my friend and I enjoyed the game quite well, it felt more challenging as the tactical mode in DOS:EE and we are looking forward for tactical mode in this game, but there are still some issues.

Some probably don't count as balancing specifically, it's just a list I put together:

- Team mates should not see, your speak options, they should only see your choice.

- Warfare skill Criple with two-handed weapon (100-140 damage) feels extremely broken, one hitting many normal mobs. We normally opened sneak with the warrior behind the enemie mages, open the fight with teleport and teleport the other mage there => instantly killing most units without physical armor

- Trait Warlord is totally broken, combined with two-handed weapon and enrage anyway. Either make it proc only once per round or reduce the effect to 1 AP per kill. (Also there is probably a bug, if you kill someone, but used your last AP for the kill, you still have your turn ended.)

- One handed skill feels pretty useless, mainly because it gives no shield benefits.

- All those armor, magic armor and vitality skills feel like wasted points except for the first one.

- Eating body parts would fit more to undeads than elves.

- Constitution loss for the elven Flesh sacrifice just gets insane over time, 5 Constitution already at level 7 or 8.

- Memory is just annoying. Less usefull skills will never get used that way.

- Level 2 skills are underpowered, too many slots needed and mostly source point makes them to expensive for the effect. The fire elemental just seems to be ridiculous weak for example.

- Bonus stats for wepons should not be totally random. Boww with strenght, Axes with Int or staff mit Agility are just worst finds ever.

- In DOS there was a drawback, if you used higher level items, in DOS2 there seems to be none.

- Social points feel pretty scarce, making racial traits to relevant in that category.

- Leader should get at least a bit of his passive, because he learned to lead so well and not just nothing.

Okay... All good ideas, and your point is made clearly and effectively. But allow me to further skew your opinion in favor of nerfing rage with this tiny tidbit of information:



Rage actually stacks with Backstab.

You get +x% critical damage based on the critical multiplier of the weapon from the crit itself, and then an additional +x% based on the critical multiplier from backstab. So it may not look like a huge jump, since it'll probably only be about a 25% or 33% increase, but oh man it makes a difference. Add on Flesh Sacrifice, and Rogues have burst like no other.

Also regarding armor, i think it is great, but like some has said, i just think there needs to be more ways to increase it beside fortify and frost armor, for example if you bless ice so will it give you a chance when walking on it to increase your magic armor, stuff like that is what i feel we could use more of.

But it is easy to just say "we need more" and then go back watching tv, so i give some suggestions as well, altough these are not deeply thought throu.

Blessing could do more work with this, like blessed poison could increase armor.

Fortify and Frost Armor flat increase the armor, could use a spell that increase over time, and try spread it to different skill trees so more has access to at least 1 such ability, Aerosurge could have a wind mist thing that increase Magic Armor over time when in it, and Warfare could drop a banner or something that gives you permanently 25 armor or such that will come back after each attack for as long the banner is close by, the banner lasting like 2 turns or so.

Witchcraft could have a spell that steals part of opponent Magic Armor.

Those are all the suggestions i could make on the fly, i am not saying anything of this is balanced, i made it up in like 5min, they are just food for thoughts.

I look at what you wrote and have come to the conclusion that you are smarter then me, i will take your word that enrage actiully works with backstab and you get more damage.

Most of what you're saying is commonly echoed here on the forums. I am curious about a couple of your issues, though.

First of all, why do you think you should not be able to see your friend's dialogue options? I always enjoyed showing off to my friends the ridiculous options that I wasn't going to pick.

What do you mean to say about the constitution loss? It resets shortly after you stop spamming Flesh Sacrifice. If it is lingering around for levels at a time, then you should make a bug report about it on the respective forum. Otherwise, -6 or so constitution seems fair in exchange for... what... 9 turns of +1 AP and +25% damage? In fact, it seems totally unfair. You are definitely getting the better end of that deal with the added AP and damage.

Why should leaders gain their own bonus? The entire point of leadership is that you cannot lead yourself, meaning choosing to invest in either one or two leaders is a has a tradeoff to it, and I feel it is a good one.

Why do you dislike higher level items having their penalties removed? It allows you to finally be able to use the loot you've found effectively without having to wait, or take penalties. Strictly a good thing for players.

If you're running out of civil skill points, have you considered the talent All Skilled Up? I feel like it actually has merit in this game, due to the civil/combat change.

Everything else you've said you'll pretty much be able to find a thread about here on the forums. Memory is terrible in its current implementation (Swen has confirmed that they are going to be trying several different implementations of memory throughout EA), crippling blow is broken like you say, source skills cost way too much in terms of investment to ever be feasible (another side effect of the memory system, in part), etc. etc. You should hang out here more often. You'll fit right in. =)

Aww, that's nice of you to say. Thanks! I'm sure you're an intelligent dude, though. Any discrepancy would likely hardly present itself for any discernible period of time, as I'm certain you'd fare well in a battle of wits.

Yes, I agree. More skills that restore armor would be awesome! That, and existing skills could honestly use with a little more oomph. Armor of Frost could stand to have its effects doubled, even, and I think it would still be fair. The same goes for fortify, maybe even moreso. That would make it actually useful on enemies, too. Plus, I'd like to see enemies use the cleansing effect of Armor of Frost in addition to using it as a straight armor buff preemptively, as they do now.

[quote=SlamPow]Most of what you're saying is commonly echoed here on the forums. I am curious about a couple of your issues, though. [/quote]

Guessed so, just gathered together my mind for some minutes there. :D

[quote=SlamPow]First of all, why do you think you should not be able to see your friend's dialogue options? I always enjoyed showing off to my friends the ridiculous options that I wasn't going to pick.[/quote]

I think it breaks the immersion, the role playing part. Sure, it is sometimes fun, but I would say never immersive. :)

[quote=SlamPow]What do you mean to say about the constitution loss? It resets shortly after you stop spamming Flesh Sacrifice. If it is lingering around for levels at a time, then you should make a bug report about it on the respective forum. Otherwise, -6 or so constitution seems fair in exchange for... what... 9 turns of +1 AP and +25% damage? In fact, it seems totally unfair. You are definitely getting the better end of that deal with the added AP and damage. [/quote]

I think you start with a loss of 2 constitution at level one and it goes up to 5 constitution at around level 7/8. The benefits stay the same but the tradeoff gets worse depending on level, what feels strange. It kind of forces you to take constitution as an elf, even if you are not playing fighter. Also why does it get more expensive, if it does not really improve? Sure, the damage improves in numbers because you have better stats and weapons, but the skill itself only gets more expensive and there does not seem to be a logic, why you sacrifice more flesh, only because your level is higher. Perhaps start lower with bonus damage and let it scale with the constitution loss. Like your elf get more experienced, so he can get more out of it. Constitution loss of 5 can make you lose 100 life or even more, it just feels less worth the higher your level gets.

[quote=SlamPow]Why should leaders gain their own bonus? The entire point of leadership is that you cannot lead yourself, meaning choosing to invest in either one or two leaders is a has a tradeoff to it, and I feel it is a good one. [/quote]

They should not get the full benefit, but perhaps the half of it. The leadership benefits are pretty strong, that makes the leader either pretty weak, because he does not get them, or forces an other char to get leadership as well. Or you can only take leadership on support chars.

[quote=SlamPow]Why do you dislike higher level items having their penalties removed? It allows you to finally be able to use the loot you've found effectively without having to wait, or take penalties. Strictly a good thing for players.[/quote]

In DOS you think, is the damage increase worth the increased cost for normal attacks. Now you can just take, without giving. Making the game more easy and less tactical I would say.

[quote=SlamPow]If you're running out of civil skill points, have you considered the talent All Skilled Up? I feel like it actually has merit in this game, due to the civil/combat change.[/quote]

My point is more, that it makes racial traits far to meaningful, forces you more to take a specific race for a specific role. I think, we liked DOS more in this direction, there you had to chose: Do I want to put points into my battle skills and use them for social stuff that does not help in battle.

[quote=SlamPow]You should hang out here more often. You'll fit right in. =)[/quote]

Yeah, probably will, mostly was hanging around steam forums, but that is less at the source. :D

Uh... Dang, I would reply directly to you my man, but for some reason the forums are telling me your post has been deleted... Weird. I lost about five minutes worth of typing there.

So you taught me a thing or two about Flesh Sacrifice. I didn't know the cost scaled per level, and that doubly sucks, since constitution gives you more HP per point per level, so it's like it's costing more twice over. But still. I think if it reduced you to 1 HP in exchange for the benefits it currently gives, I think it would still be somewhat strong, since you can just keep a ranger safe by outranging everything, and stackning up armor to boot.

Eh, I wrote a bunch more, but I'd rather not type it up again. I like what you're saying, though. Good discussion.

So what brings you here from the Steam forums?

Sorry, I deleted my post, because of the not working quotes. Thought it was an issue with using quick reply, but no just seems to be issue with my account being still to fresh out of oven. :D

Also hoped I deleted if fast enough, so nobody already saw it. Bummer :(

Yeah, the main issue is, the costs increase but the gains stay the same, that is just counterintuitive.

Yeah, for a ranger it would be still worth, but what about a fighter or rogue? And also on the other hand there are enough enemies, who could just phoenix dive at your ranger for example.

Don't know, just thought, posting stuff here would be probably more usefull than posting stuff there. :D

Ah, I see.
Mmm, true true.

I dunno, Phoenix Dive is only used by warriors right now, who have only physical armor - meaning, with my megamage around, that's a ticket to stunlock city. =D

For a fighter, it would be suuuper risky, but taking away damage from warriors is only a good thing.

For a rogue, well... Sneak is broken right now. So Rogues can sneak 100% without getting seen after getting their stabba stabba off. Once that is fixed, then yeah, it'd go back to being a risky strat at best.

And yeah, posting things here tends to be more useful, since the devs actually read this forum. =D That, and Raze and Vometia are so cool. And Limz! And aj, and Messenger, and... There are just so many cool people here. I love it.

Okay, I think I'm going to sleep. I was too addicted to the forums last night, and didn't end up sleeping, so I'm super tired. Catch ya later, man!

Phoenix dive was just an example, there are others skill for relocating, for rogues and rangers for example. Some voidwoken can relocate themselves as well, like the huge worm.

Taking away damage from warriors is only broken, because their skills are broken atm. If those get fixed it won't be that good anymore?

Haven't played rogue so far, so can't tell, but snipe from ranger can be broken as well, easily one hitting a mage in the last boss fight for starter.

Ah, something I just remember: Exp gain for fights, they real need to get balanced. Some easy fights give you tons of exp per kill (voidwoken waves, silent monks), while some harder fights give hardly any. That feels even worse than the random loot.

Good night btw ;)

Lol Someone else brought up CC after armor is gone and I know I've discussed it at length in another thread, but just so it's restated here while we throw ideas around:

Leave the armor system intact but change the defensive abilities back to the EE ones. Also bring block chance back to shields and add stuff like the old shield skills back in.

I have some other odds and ends I could comment on but I'd rather let my brain rest instead of discussing multiple points concerning balance at once at the moment. The others raised some very good points and ideas above though.

And some other exploitable stuff for the last battle:

You can quite easily kill all minions from the boss fight, before the boss even gets to act, if you keep one guy talking to him and don't attack the boss himself.

Okay, I rose from the grave because I heard the cosmos calling out to me and telling me that this was brought up again.

Let me use an example as to why this system is flawed. Right now, there is nothing that a warrior cannot kill in one turn, with the sole exception of the last bosses. If a warrior could spend 3 AP to eliminate most targets, and a mage has to spend at least 4 to just get armor down (assuming no hail strike, which the majority of mage classes do not start out with), which is being conservative, let's say I have flesh sacrifice and can still cast Winter Blast. Now, if at this point I only have a chance to CC them, then if my CC fails, then I have effectively acted as an objectively worse archer with less range, less damage, and less synergy with any warriors that might be in the group (not exactly an advantage for me, but an advantage nonetheless), who can benefit each other by all acting on physical armor. Whereas the mage must burn through a totally seperate bar just to do damage. Now, failing to CC on this first turn (which, due to how enemies are spaced out nowadays, I could probably only do it to one dude if I'm trying to chew through his magic armor), essentially gives this enemy a free turn that he wouldn't otherwise have. If I have Glass Cannon, or less than around a hundred armor (with loot being as it is, this is all too common an occurence), this opens me up to being CC'd, and in my experience with EE, enemy CC chances are way higher than player CC chances, so being CC'd is almost guaranteed here. Even if it's not, it's likely, and this ends up with me effectively losing even more turns. Now, I like to play with one person. This means that my entire party is eliminated for the duration of the CC. Now let's say I did not have glass cannon. Let's say I also had good loot RNG, and ended up with decent magic armor. Well, I certainly am not building physical armor on a mage, so I am still vulnerable to Battle Stomp, Battering Ram, Crippling Blow (instant death, actually), knockdown arrows, and armor piercing grenades actually do enough damage to be completely lethal from full health. I am completely vulnerable for a full turn, it's not my fault, and there was nothing I could do about it. This was a frequent occurance if you played your mage suboptimally in EE, and was quite annoying. Once you got Drain Willpower and 15 INT, this wasn't so much of a problem, but Drain Willpower only affects one enemy, and has a cooldown. So we run into the same issue of, "why am I not just playing a warrior who can casually hit for over a thousand damage instead, and has CC that is just as if not more effective?" This was not helped by warrior's better mobility, better survivability, and the luxury of being able to afford points for Bodybuilding and Willpower because you are spared the nightmare of investing into Hydro, Aero, Witchcraft, Wand, Single Handed/Dual Wielding, etc. You just need maaaaybe a little bit of two handed, enough man-at-arms for maybe 5 useful skills, and that was it. The rest of your points were free to be spent on bodybuilding and willpower.

So let's see what this amounts to.

In the current implementation of the game, if you do not have Hail Strike, or are in an area where it is glitched (High Judge Orivander boss fight), then your best hope is wands. The terrible downgrade to bows and/or crossbows. So you devolve into a left clicker in order to shred magic armor,
and once it's down, you are relying on luck, and luck alone, to allow you to serve any viable purpose against enemies. You could create surfaces. Attempt to utilize zone control. But in my experience, they're just going to Phoenix Dive across it, or shoot over it. You could stay back and try to heal and buff your allies. But if you were an archer or warrior, then you could just kill the enemies, giving them no chance to do damage, and effectively saving health. The warrior is also harder to CC once his armor goes down, or if you use an armor check that is of a type that he does not have. The warrior probably has more health because of Picture of Health, the warrior has teleports to get around surfaces, and to put the icing on the cake, the most powerful abilities in the game right now - spells like Teleport, and Restoration - only require one point in a school to get, are unaffected by chance or intelligence, and are therefore exactly as effective as the mage's variants of those skills. This means that even if you need to get an ally out of a surface, or you want to put an enemy in one for some reason, then it's just as easy to have a warrior do it. So equal utility, similar CC that acts on armor that can feasibly be shredded in one turn and still leave AP for using the CC itself (something a mage can't hope to do), and the best part? A mage using fire wands is going to burn his target, preventing him from being frozen. The same goes for if they combo pyro/geo. So their own actions can easily lead to locking themselves out of their own CC, something which is not an issue for warriors. And you want to hear the sad part? 400 damage is the lowest amount of damage I've ever done with Crippling Blow at level 7. With stat investment in 2 handed and Scoundrel, flesh sacrifice and rage, and a baller weapon, I have seen warriors crit for upwards of 1000 damage. So even better than removing an enemy from the fight for a turn or two, you can implement a permanent solution instead. Let's look at this in a very specific example.

Bishop Alexander. Turn 1: Warrior uses Flesh Sacrifice, Rage, Phoenix Dive, Crippling Blow, and Battering Ram. The boss is halfway dead, has no physical armor, has a large chance to be CC'd, and the warrior is out of opportunity attack range in addition to still having plenty of armor and a decent chance to resist CC even when it's gone.

Now.

Bishop Alexander. Turn 1: Mage uses Flesh Sacrifice. Mage uses wand attack to burn off some armor. Then, mage follows with Hail Strike, potentially chilling him. Then, you have one chance to CC him. If you fail, he walks up to you, and kills you in exactly one hit. If you succeed, then you are offered a small chance at victory, but you have not dealt with any of the other enemies, and using Hail Strike and Winter Blast put them on cooldown, meaning you are no longer in any position to deal with them anyways.

The warrior is now in a position where he could feasibly tank Alexander's hit, where he is positioned exactly how he intends to be, and where Alexander has roughly the same chance of being CC'd as the mage's Alexander does, but with significantly more damage done and the strategic advantage of having been able to move close to the wall where the archer cannot hit you and the mage cannot see you. He still has Battle Stomp off of cooldown for additional CC should he need it, and he's still raged, so his damage is still well within the realm of "good", allowing him to two shot the warrior, one shot the Rogue, Ranger or Mage, or potentially kill Alexander next turn. Even if someone uses a thunder grenade, or Bishop casts Blinding Radiance, he has a decent chance to resist from Willpower and Bodybuilding.

The mage has not yet positioned herself. She cannot take a single hit from Alexander, the mage probably has enough AP on turn 1 to kill her from full magical armor, the Rogue can kill or CC her with ease, and her main CC is on cooldown, meaning she has to resort to CC's that are weaker, shredding less magic armor and costing more AP to achieve the same end result that Winter Blast could, which is CC'ing a target. With Hail Strike on cd, there goes her shred, and hitting a target with fire wands (the type the guaranteed-to-drop Purging Wands are, strongest wands I've found yet) means that once Winter Blast is off cooldown, it will not work due to the fact that the target is either warm or on fire. So your best bet is to shred with wands, then use an electricity spell. But you can't shred the mage fast enough, the warrior probably has a decent chance to resist, and so does the rogue, because in classic mode just about every enemy has willpower and bodybuilding, and in Tactician this will be the issue X3. If Bodybuilding and Willpower didn't exist, you could easily chew your way through them methodically and strategically, while kiting and CC'ing the melee guys (namely, zap the warrior, and pray you can tank the rogue for the first turn, when he has to spend AP to get to you) and teleporting them together for AoEs when you get the chance.

So, my warrior's chances have been mostly unaffected. My mage's chances have dropped drastically, including the addition of a nonzero chance of me automatically failing the fight on turn 1 through no fault of my own. The chance to lose the encounter is especially increased since I am not just relying on my CC working once, but multiple times across several opponents distributed over a series of turns, meaning my chance for an eventual failure statistically increases exponentially as the fight goes on. And in this fight, one failure is all that one needs for certain death.

The mage is in a terrible position, and set up for instant death from a lucky Rogue crit.

The warrior is 50% of the time facing a half dead boss and enemies that can't reach/see me, and 50% of the time facing a half dead boss that has been taken out of the fight, in addition to being unreachable, untargetable, having CC remaining that is AoE and off cooldown, as well as still having Rage and Flesh Sacrifice on, meaning that I have plenty of killing power left.

Now. In this scenario, I vastly prefer the current system, clearly. Here is my challenge to you. Can you provide me a single encounter, anywhere in the game, where you think I would instead prefer your proposed system?

@SlamPow
I'm pretty sure we hashed that out last time and my response was the same. Those issues have less to do with CC chance in the EA currently and more to do with how broken warriors are at the moment. Ideally Wizard CC would be a lot more likely to proc and they'd have a plethora of more options (Ice Shard, Fireball, Thunder Bolt/Jump, Smoke Screen) and a crap ton of combos they could set up and powerful spells that cause status effects, set up combos, and deal good damage. Alternatively, warriors are more tanky, have some some CC that's all single target base with average proc chance, and high singular target damage in comparison to the squishy wizard having both good AoE or Single target damage. As for fighters chewing through physical armor and mages not chewing through magic armor well, it'd be cool if they did more with the air bonus to attacking magic armor so while fighters could still chew through phsysical armor and then health with bashing things, mages could stategically use spell types, specific skills, and combos to do the same. Maybe a high air spell and air ability bonus would create the same product: Strong 2h knight eats armor and health in crit and strong mage eats magic armor, some health, and then stuns...both doing this in the same rounds ideally when both are min maxed.

A mage is about control and tactics and a fighter about causing damage are the roles they should be balanced around ideally.

That's issues that stem from the skills, stats, and how they function for "class" balance. Not really anything to do with how the system itself functions.

Also, I wouldn't know about sub-optimal mages in EE *shrug* I min-maxed all my characters. My Knights hit like trunks, my tanks were immortal, and my mages played god. They each fulfilled a singular role particularly well. Fighters couldn't CC naywhere near as much as mages but were tough and could dish out the damage. Mages could combo for powerful tactics, AoE the crap out of everything, and had God tier field control. Hell in Classic I'd just thunder jump, shield myself, and then go invisible each turn for lolz.....Couldnt touch or find me and shield acted as free health. EE helped balance this more.

In this EA they simply made warriors too powerful to make up for the difference in past games. Oblivion and Syrim come to mind where the same power dynamic took place between games (mages > fighters in one and fighter <mages in the other).

I don't know if I can ever give you a scenario where'd prefer my system though. We both know each others preferences after all.

I only restated it here since you wanted a unified thread on ideas and I wasn't even the first to suggest it. You've also said you'd be all for at least trying it out. I gave the armor system a chance and while I don't think it's perfect I also like it for what it does well. I just think it can be improved. Just be open minded to the chances that a combo system can be done well; I think it's been shown through comments that a not insignificant portion of players have shown an interest in the idea.

EDIT: They could also push for more health needed on fighters so they don't just pump STR. And then by tying CC to the stats like in EE, an INT focused mage would have good CC for his being a glass cannon and fighters would have to truth between being the same or not. And given that they wont have the range advantage or as many CC options it'd make them more like fragile cannon balls: good at killing something but as soon as the enemy catches them they're dead. Then the glassy mage steps in and control the field and keep his health decent to allow the fighter free reign without worry to his health.

Alright, so one thing you'll learn about me, is that I actually have what doctors call a "severely impaired" memory, which means that I'm actually in the bottom .1% of the population, routinely forgetting things that I've just done. Can't do much to help that.

But yes, I would be all for giving this system a try. That doesn't mean I think I'll like it, though.

The problem with your suggested solution for making mages useful is that it revolves around things that can no longer be done, unlike in the first game. Field control is nigh useless between the prevalence of Phoenix Dive, the added range on archers, and the fact that Battle Stomp exists, and easily cleanses surfaces. Dropping mad combos in the first game was a matter of simply having enough AP to do so; in this game, you have enough AP to cast 2 of what I would consider reasonably costed 1 memory CC or damage spells per turn, and if you say you think a high level air spell will do potentially rip off their armor and CC them, let me remind you that memory costs, AP costs and cooldowns are all going to increase with spell level. So a spell that does this would probably cost 4+ AP, and would be too powerful to be multiple target. So theoretically, this very powerful air spell could rip of their armor and stun them... could. Or a warrior could dive them, rage, and use [insert overpowered replacement for the nerfed crippling blow here]. I don't have to get lucky to kill something in one turn with a knight, and so far, I've yet to see anything otherwise in any divinity game that I've played. Specifically, when you say things like



it confuses me, and runs counter to my own 500 combined hours of experience in DOS and EE.

In DOS, warriors were known for one shotting the last boss.

In EE, they were known for outdamaging Mages to the point that the latter was overshadowed and rendered nigh useless by comparison. Where are you getting the impression that this has ever not been the case? What causes you to think that this will change in the second game, despite the current appearance that the trend is meant to continue?

It's fine, man.

And yeah, there's plenty of issues with game currently. Remember that they plan to play around with other version of AP, Abilities, Skills, Stats (especially memory), and AP costs.

I don't have a perfect answer for everything, but I hold out hope that during this extensive EA they'll get it all right.

Warriors could one shot the last boss.....and Mages could simply deny the boss ever having a turn. Generally, finishing the Void Dragon in one turn consisted of a Mage using Hail to freeze it and then a warrior to finish it off. It played to their strengths. A warrior dealth the damage but had to warrior about CC, runninfg into enemies couldn't just bash and so on. Mages basically had God Tier field ontrol in the end. Blind everyone and set the on fire turn one. Poison and mass weakness and thunder jump turn one. Smoke screen to force all enemies to, including ranged, to move in close range and bunch up. Attack and go invisible and rinse and repeat....

Don't even get me started on glasscannon lonewolf mages in Classic: 16AP a turn......And in that one turn I could have frozen three enemies, stunned the rest, and then follow up with poison. Next I just start sporing and firballs and blind. One minmaxed wizard could effectively fight all the enemies at once without ever being hit.

The only thing warriors did better was single target damage. And in te turn he killed one or two, I basically CC'd and half killed two to three times as many. This isn't bringing in the all the summons

This dynamic didn't change overly much in EE. Dual Mage runs are still one of the easiest ways to beat the game.

You can ask around about that though, if you want other opinions.

EDIT: And in the few times a mage couldn't outright CC and AoE things, we had invisibility and four different overshields (basically second health bars) and teleport, all the different summons, and featherfall. We had a skill to negate any enemy ever harming and/or reaching us and bringing more and more allies to the field.

Also, God's did I love 1 turn cool down on things like teleport and stuff.....I essentially had no cooldowns for all my best combos and spells so I could just keep spamming them in classic it was horribly horribly broken