|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
|
So you guys are saying that the Flee button should be considered a cheat, and shouldn't be considered a part of the normal game? Nah, I am saying that it's there for people who want to take a half-step rather than a whole or possibly because ironman might be so damn unforgiving or <insert some other reason>. A cheat really is something external, everything else is exploiting mechanics and to be honest, there are too many of them to cover when you push the system towards more open-ended options so you pick and choose which ones you discriminate against in order to preserve the core experience. Fleeing may very well just be a bit too bothersome to deal with but at the same time the core audience probably isn't looking to flee just like the core audience isn't looking to throw barrels around or bring in external programs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
|
I don't think anyone ment that.
I think some ppl just want to point out if you put a "walk in the park" functionality in a game its same as put a instakill ability to the game. Its make the game completaly pointless for some players like if you put a button to a game which just basicaly finish the game for you.
Sure some ppl won't use it cuz its break the immersion but some will do and it will break some others immersion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
|
Fleeing is something you should use, if you accidently triggered a fight, that you most likely won't survive, because the enemies are stronger as you expected.
If you return you still will have the knowledge and be better prepared, but same goes if you start a new playthrough. But killing a 1, 2 enemies and afterwards fleeing before you self get killed, is no cheat but exploiting the game like save scumming or using sneak in the open.
It denies yourself a real challenge, making the game two easy. It is impossible to balance the game against these exploits.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Apr 2013
|
So you guys are saying that the Flee button should be considered a cheat, and shouldn't be considered a part of the normal game? I am certainly NOT saying that at all. I am all for it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
apprentice
|
|
apprentice
Joined: Sep 2016
|
Why not just make it so PCs can only flee when they are out of Line-Of-Sight of all the enemies in the encounter? It would prevent the cheesy "just out of arm's reach" fleeing and allow some creative use of smoke screens, blind, stealth, and invisibility when needed. If an enemy is petrified, frozen, stunned, or blinded, they should also not inhibit a character from fleeing. (If you can hard CC all enemies within threatening range, you've probably already won that battle anyway).
Additionally, you should not be able to flee while within a hazardous surface (like oil, fire, poison clouds, ice, etc). Other conditions such as Crippled or Blinded could prevent fleeing, too. ^^^ For me, this is the best idea.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2015
|
Not to mention the fact you can be in the middle of a prison escape, get in a fight and "flee" outside to the last waypoint. It really seems you should need to *try* to escape your foes, especially in a game trying to be more immersive than Dos1
Edit: What world is this where people are defending a blantant exploit? This is not a tactic we're debating being OP or not, not a fun way to play, it's *a way to break the game*.
It'd be cool if running away required you to outrun foes, to out barriers in their way. I remember running feom the deathknights in DOS1, putting an ice wall in their way and thinking "this is how we should have to flee"
Last edited by Kindulas; 08/10/16 02:28 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
|
Flee is too generous. Any fight gets hard? Guess I'll flee!
If an ability trivializes a large portion of the game, it probably needs to get modified. This is the case with flee. It's the solution to every combat that is going poorly. No downsides. 100% availability too.
It being so dominant reduces the viability of other methods of handling a fight.
Healing? Nah, just flee when you get low, bedroll, and rejoin the fight.
Tactical retreat? Nah, just flee, to get out. Don't waste the resources.
etc.
It shapes the game in a negative way to have an unchecked mechanic, especially if it's supposedly working as intended.
The onus of game balance shouldn't be on the player to have to tell themselves not to use core features that are too strong, it should just be balanced to be more in-line with a fun game design.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2016
|
Flee is too generous. Any fight gets hard? Guess I'll flee!
If an ability trivializes a large portion of the game, it probably needs to get modified. This is the case with flee. It's the solution to every combat that is going poorly. No downsides. 100% availability too.
It being so dominant reduces the viability of other methods of handling a fight.
Healing? Nah, just flee when you get low, bedroll, and rejoin the fight.
Tactical retreat? Nah, just flee, to get out. Don't waste the resources.
etc.
It shapes the game in a negative way to have an unchecked mechanic, especially if it's supposedly working as intended.
The onus of game balance shouldn't be on the player to have to tell themselves not to use core features that are too strong, it should just be balanced to be more in-line with a fun game design. This guy gets it ^^
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
|
Flee is too generous. Any fight gets hard? Guess I'll flee!
If an ability trivializes a large portion of the game, it probably needs to get modified. This is the case with flee. It's the solution to every combat that is going poorly. No downsides. 100% availability too.
It being so dominant reduces the viability of other methods of handling a fight.
Healing? Nah, just flee when you get low, bedroll, and rejoin the fight.
Tactical retreat? Nah, just flee, to get out. Don't waste the resources.
etc.
It shapes the game in a negative way to have an unchecked mechanic, especially if it's supposedly working as intended.
The onus of game balance shouldn't be on the player to have to tell themselves not to use core features that are too strong, it should just be balanced to be more in-line with a fun game design. Those are decisions of the weak minded. We love to use heal and tatical retreat. We want to defeat the enemies at their best and not weaken them flee by flee.  Fleeing is like save scumming. You can abuse it, but nobody forces you to do it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2016
|
Flee is too generous. Any fight gets hard? Guess I'll flee!
If an ability trivializes a large portion of the game, it probably needs to get modified. This is the case with flee. It's the solution to every combat that is going poorly. No downsides. 100% availability too.
It being so dominant reduces the viability of other methods of handling a fight.
Healing? Nah, just flee when you get low, bedroll, and rejoin the fight.
Tactical retreat? Nah, just flee, to get out. Don't waste the resources.
etc.
It shapes the game in a negative way to have an unchecked mechanic, especially if it's supposedly working as intended.
The onus of game balance shouldn't be on the player to have to tell themselves not to use core features that are too strong, it should just be balanced to be more in-line with a fun game design. Those are decisions of the weak minded. We love to use heal and tatical retreat. We want to defeat the enemies at their best and not weaken them flee by flee. Fleeing is like save scumming. You can abuse it, but nobody forces you to do it. Yes, but sneaking is like save scamming xurrently and nobody forces you to do it. See the problems with your logic?
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
|
Sneaking during a battle? Or sneaking in general?
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2016
|
Fleeing is like save scumming. You can abuse it, but nobody forces you to do it.
If a mechanic is abuse by simply using it, why include it at all? What have you decided is the 'intended' use case? Wouldn't it make more sense for the ability to be good for the cases where an escape makes sense, and not just a free teleport back to the closest waypoint?
Last edited by vometia; 08/10/16 07:41 PM. Reason: formatting
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2016
|
Sneaking during a battle? Or sneaking in general? If a character has 1 in sneak and does this sequence of events: Step 1: get all enemies facing one direction (this is pretty easy) Step 2: Stand behind one enemy and end each turn in sneak Step 3: AI will stand there at the end of every one of your turns doing nothing .......You can exploit this to beat the entire game with fists if ya want. The AI basically can never find you and thus never targets you in combat for anything...letting you just wail on them over the course of each fight as long as you end your turn in sneak each time. Might as well tell the AI never to attack anyone, right? Why make me hit the extra button and take that much longer? EDIT: Don't even have to move. Just hit C at the end of each turn with your last AP. Instant immortality
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
|
The difference between save scammqing and fleeing is you hardly gona savescam in coop versus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
|
Me and my friend never use sneak in fight either, we only use it before the fight starts for an ambush. (Probably a bit to strong either.)
The main difference between sneaking and fleeing/savesumming is: You can abuse sneaking in arena (PvP), but you can't use those other two there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2015
|
At least when you load a savegame you made during combat, you lose any progress you made since you saved. When you flee, everyone you killed is still dead, and your party's back at full strength. And, you know, I'm fine with that, as long as I can't flee with enemies breathing on my neck, standing in a pool of cursed fire, with everyone in my party about to die. It's like "Well, you know, if anyone had moved at all, they'd have died, so we just fled instead." That doesn't make sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2016
|
At least when you load a savegame you made during combat, you lose any progress you made since you saved. When you flee, everyone you killed is still dead, and your party's back at full strength. And, you know, I'm fine with that, as long as I can't flee with enemies breathing on my neck, standing in a pool of cursed fire, with everyone in my party about to die. It's like "Well, you know, if anyone had moved at all, they'd have died, so we just fled instead." That doesn't make sense. All this. I also dislike the concept of their being no cost to flee. Their should be some kind of cost to balance and make the decision a more tactical choice
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
OP
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2015
|
At least when you load a savegame you made during combat, you lose any progress you made since you saved. I would like to note that I'm also against save scumming. I don't think you should be able to save during combat. Or, you can, but it's a one-use save, where the game exits after performing the save, and after it's loaded, it's deleted. Some of the Castlevania games for the DS had that feature. It's good for when you have to stop playing right now, but don't want to lose progress.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2016
|
At least when you load a savegame you made during combat, you lose any progress you made since you saved. I would like to note that I'm also against save scumming. I don't think you should be able to save during combat. Or, you can, but it's a one-use save, where the game exits after performing the save, and after it's loaded, it's deleted. Some of the Castlevania games for the DS had that feature. It's good for when you have to stop playing right now, but don't want to lose progress. Solution: Honor Mode *shrug*
|
|
|
|
|
|
Duchess of Gorgombert
|
|
Duchess of Gorgombert
Joined: May 2010
|
I have to say I really hate it when games artificially restrict my ability to save. I seldom engage in save-scumming because I don't care for it, so I don't do it; but if my opportunities for saving were removed because someone else didn't like the possibility of me doing something in my own game that they dislike I'd be pretty annoyed.
I'm much more likely to need to go and attend to something at a moment's notice rather than save-scum and find games that are all "lol you'll have to replay from the last checkpoint, sucks to be you" to be tedious and irritating.
J'aime le fromage.
|
|
|
|
|
