Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Suggestions and Feedback Daggers are too Weak

Daggers are the required weapon for the Scoundrel weapon abilities, however, they are noticeably weaker than their Strength counterparts. This results in the Rogue (Daggers+Scoundrel) playstyle not being very rewarding. I'm not saying one can't play Rogue, and I'm not saying one can't beat or even solo the game using Daggers, but I am saying doing so is harder and with no apparent rewards over alternatives.

This issue primarily stems from that fact that Daggers have a lower base damage than Strength weapons, but without any apparent advantage.
As an example, a level 5 dagger will have a base average damage of 26. The corresponding 1H Strength weapons will have 38. That's 46% more base damage to the Strength weapons.

In an attempt to offset this, one might consider picking the Backstab talent (only works with Daggers, and all attacks are crits if done from behind). Since crits do 50% more damage, and we can (theoretically) Backstab for all of our attacks, our damage is now on-par with the Strength weapons.
However, getting directly behind the target requires extra effort and isn't always possible, all of our crit strike stat is now wasted (Backstabs cannot also crit), and we have spent 1 of our precious talent points just to be on even footing. This is a huge cost to just do the same damage as a Str weapon user would by default.

Also, because Backstabs cannot crit, and it appears that Backstabs are an important Dagger mechanic (as evident from the auto-backstab included in multiple Scoundrel abilities), there is an anti-synergy with the critical strike granted from the Dual Wielding bonus and the Wits stat, both of which are core to the standard Rogue identity.

This doesn't even address the fact that the scoundrel weapon abilities are all limited to 1 target and do not provide any CC, while the Strength based Warfare abilities enjoy these bonuses. However, perhaps those abilities are just too strong.

I would recommend 1 of 2 changes. Either increase the base damage of daggers to be equal with Str based 1-hand weapons, or make Backstab a built-in dagger feature that can occur alongside a regular crit strike (This would STILL be weaker than Str weapons as getting a backstab is effort that should reward with higher damage, not just equal).
If daggers were also granted a higher base critical damage bonus that may also help with their identity and balance.

Without the damage potential being equal, why would anyone use daggers and the Scoundrel weapon attacks? I believe in DoS1 the daggers had a lower cost to attack, which is why a lower base damage was acceptable, but this is no longer the case.

Off-topic a bit, but the Spear doesn't have any identity. It requires Finesse, but doesn't work with Scoundrel abilities and the Warfare abilities don't scale off of the Finesse. Spears do have a slight extra range bonus, but there are no weapon abilities which they synergize well with.

The current weapon system is a mess in a lot of ways. I came across a bow that reloaded like a crossbow for some reason (Visually) and fired like one. I don't think that's on purpose :'D

Bugs aside, Daggers are weak right now. Both Single and Dual wield stats are so pointless to take over Scoundrel and Warfare. The fact they are in direct competition with each-other is a huge issue in-and-of-itself. One option will always be better than the other choice, depending on how you build the character, resulting in a character with 20+ in Scoundrel and nothing in Dual Wielding or Single. Same with Warfare and 2H.

Why would you take Warfare over Single or Dual Wield?

Warfare increases the damage done to armor by 3% and +1. It doesn't affect the damage done to health, which is nearly all of the damage one does. That means, it has no benefit after your opponent has reached 0 armor.

Single-hand increases damage by 4% and accuracy by 2%, increasing all damage one does.

Heck, even dual wield is a 3% damage boost, which will still yield more damage than a point towards Warfare's passive bonus, since it affects the health as well.

Did I miss something?

I've seen issues like this one coming from a long way off.

I tried raising objections to having to spend a Talent point onto Backstab, and also suggested it become part of the weapon itself, but that got nowhere. In fairness, though:



I didn't do a lot of testing - but with the testing I did do, I realized that the backstab did put the dagger on par with the maximum damage of the sword... but that's the maximum damage - the sword usually does less damage than the maximum.

Essentially Backstabber is giving you consistent damage at the maximum power, instead of the larger variation from the regular sword.



I believe that points into Scoundrel increase critical damage.


It's late and I have more thoughts on this, but they'll have to wait.

My example showed that average damage was approximately the same with Backstab included (but with the noted drawbacks). Strength weapons may have more or less variation, but I believe that is more of an issue of personal preference or situational as to which is better.


This is true, but Strength weapon users are pumping points into 2H, which gives 3% damage and 3% critical, and they have 100% crits from Rage. Scoundrel only contributes to damage with the 3% crit damage increase. This is another example of why the Daggers are underperforming.

Scoundrel and Warfare give access to a ton of mobility, it's not about the stats at all. (which in all cases are minimal) There is an obvious issue with warfare being able to give you 100% crit and having access to huge damage skills as well as mobility. There is a whole other thread going over this topic in greater detail if you'd like to know more, but hopefully it will all be tuned a bit prior to launch.

On the original topic though, I feel as though daggers are supposed to have lower base damages that you increase through other means like scoundrel skills and backstab. The game is pretty openly heralding back to oldschool pen and papers where daggers did almost nothing for damage until you speced for them at which point they became monstrous.

Edit

Also worth noting that I'm currently in the middle of a DW dagger playthrough and enjoying it quite a bit. I have not felt underpowered at any point so far and I've played a lot of other builds to compare it to. I'll try to pay specific attention to how well I do in each encounter now that I have a reason to but so far my damage has been great.

Yes, but it only requires 1 point (if any) to learn and have access to the skills.
I'm talking about once you start placing points just for the passive bonuses.
Sure, each point is a small bonus, but some help significantly more than others, and once you have 6-8 points invested towards the end of the act it makes a marked difference.



This sounds fine to me, the problem is that the damage doesn't get there (at least without significant caveats) and so a boost somewhere along the lines is in order.

Yeah, for sure. The point wasn't that they don't make any difference, just that the skills themselves are a bigger influence. I'm pretty sure we're on the same page there, but I still feel pretty comfortable saying that DW dagger spec feels fine in actual play right now, at least in the earlier levels, and that's what we're really talking about here.

Fatal Blow does exist fyi.

Mortal Blow doesn't require a Dagger and can be learned with only 1 point in Scoundrel. Meaning, a 2H Warrior makes much better use of it than a Rogue.


"Mortal Blow: Deal double normal damage. Damage is increased by 500% if you are sneaking or invisible."

Sneaking is a skill anyone can pick up, and 500% is a much bigger bonus for a Str weapon than a dagger, as they have somewhere around 50% more base damage.

If anything, this is just another example of why Daggers are bad.

Edit: Mortal Blow requires a Dagger

A fine example of something that could easily be fixed by having skills that explicitly require daggers to be used.

This is an option.

Adding weapon-specific requirements makes the skills more exclusive. I'd rather have more inclusive skills and just better-balanced weapons, personally.

Either way, it's a tall order for 1 skill to turn the tide, and it certainly doesn't as it exists now. The source abilities are heavy on the memory and action point requirements and refilling the source points isn't easy/fun either.

You made me do a double take. It says "Properties: Requires Dagger".

You are correct. It wasn't showing me that because I was already wearing a dagger.

Still though, every skillset has good source abilities. The existence of this skill doesn't make the other underpowered aspects of the dagger any better.

I feel as though weapon attacks should be exclusive with utility and stuff being shared is the right way to go here. There are plenty of examples of games that do this to great success and others (rightfully so) may disagree with my opinion on the matter.

It can work either way. We do have very limited options for Weapon skills though, at most 1 skill type each, and then there's the Spear, which doesn't fit in anywhere. Only usable with Warfare abilities, but it requires Finesse and the Warfare abilities scale from Str.

I just would like dagger users to do as-much damage as Str users without having to spend a talent to catch up, and at least a little more if they have to have the inconvenience of getting behind the target first. Is that unreasonable?

Nope

Backstabs can crit.

Vault requires dagger.

Backstabs are crits, but they cannot also crit.

For example, the ability Vault says it always triggers a Backstab.
I use Vault and do 243 damage. It says "Backstab Critical" and "Critical Hit" when I use the ability. This is with me having 1% crit chance.
I then reload and use Rage, then Vault. The attack hits for 245 damage. It says "Backstab Critical" and "Critical Hit".
The damage is essentially the same. There is no bonus for having 100% crit as opposed to 0% crit on a Backstab hit.

Do you have an example indicating otherwise?

The damage difference on Z is 100 (106 absorbed by armor) and 190~ going from a backstab to an enraged backstab using a normal attack cycle.

I feel like this is going to turn into yet another case where I have to fact check and do all the work myself.