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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
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So me and my friend where playing 2 chars, him a scoundrel and me an inquisitor. No biggy, turns out necromancy doesn't have skills to summon anything... sucks. The issue is we started every single fight behind in initiative, no matter whether he used sneak to get first hit or he was sneaking while I started the fight. We never struck first, ever... there is also no indication on how to increase this besides increasing level, which i find horrible if you build a scoundrel built for speed. Unless i'm missing something. So while we never started a single fight first we would always get CC'd. The CC in classic mode is borderline permanent if you don't go first. Example: fighting the crocodiles with the one that can teleport. One of the croc's fear'ed us for 6 turns straight, every time the fear wore off he reapplied it permanently locking us in fear until we were killed. Regardless of formation, spreading out, different tactics, and other ways to do it. The sole fact is CC shouldn't be able to be a permanent reapplying thing that you can never, ever, get out of. It should at the very least have diminishing stack returns if used back to back. Having fights solely determined by CC is boring, slows game play down and literally comes down to, I stun first and win or you stun first and win.
If the game is meant to be really opened ended it doesn't work unless you have someone who can tank damage while others attack, unless you CC lock the entire team and thus it doesn't become a fight anymore, it turns into you beating on enemies that can't fight back and that isn't entertaining. You might as well make the enemies dummies that I just walk up to beat on to skip the step of me CCing them to do this. This was a huge issue for me and my friend, you can't have a party that can't absorb damage unless you are heavy CC and constantly stop the enemy from fighting. It isn't a fight if its one sided. The combat system is geared to avoid fighting to win fights.
Last edited by DontTouchMyHoHos; 16/10/16 01:29 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2015
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turns out necromancy doesn't have skills to summon anything. They haven't added summoning yet. there is also no indication on how to increase this besides increasing level Putting points in Wits increases Initiative, and there is +Initiative on some gear. It's not much, but it's all there is. Wits is a pretty underwhelming stat as it is currently, so best to get +Initiative gear. I fully agree with you on the CC issue.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2016
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Wits only is godd at the early level, harshly losing after 3 at current state.
Leadership is still one of the best ways to improve Ini (except for the leader himself).
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member
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Currently the only real way to deal with the CC problem is to have magic armor equipped. Ideally wits would be the solution to your problem (which is actually mentioned on the stat...) but it doesn't really because the stat system in the game is currently terrible. There are a million topics that discuss this, if you want to know more go find one of them. At present the two solutions are to either deal with it using magic armor and clever play, or wait for full release once they have all the kinks sorted out. (keep in mind this is a beta after all)
Chaotic neutral, not chaotic stupid.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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There are some abilities that remove CC. In some cases, you can remove the thing that is causing the CC.
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addict
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Joined: Sep 2016
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Currently the only real way to deal with the CC problem is to have magic armor equipped. Ideally wits would be the solution to your problem (which is actually mentioned on the stat...) but it doesn't really because the stat system in the game is currently terrible. There are a million topics that discuss this, if you want to know more go find one of them. At present the two solutions are to either deal with it using magic armor and clever play, or wait for full release once they have all the kinks sorted out. (keep in mind this is a beta after all) Well, actually it's an Alpha and the point of all the feedback is that the devs plan to try different permutations of the game so the armor system might not even be there in the release version depending There're in fact several threads discussing this in one form or another though
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
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There are some abilities that remove CC. In some cases, you can remove the thing that is causing the CC. Does me no good unless i'm not in cc permlock
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
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Currently the only real way to deal with the CC problem is to have magic armor equipped. Ideally wits would be the solution to your problem (which is actually mentioned on the stat...) but it doesn't really because the stat system in the game is currently terrible. There are a million topics that discuss this, if you want to know more go find one of them. At present the two solutions are to either deal with it using magic armor and clever play, or wait for full release once they have all the kinks sorted out. (keep in mind this is a beta after all) I'm not ignorant to the alpha world as some are :P. Just adding numbers to the complaints about CC, strength in numbers and all is a louder voice then flooded out single threads.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2014
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There are some abilities that remove CC. In some cases, you can remove the thing that is causing the CC. Does me no good unless i'm not in cc permlock True. But how did you get into that position in the first place?
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member
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Well, actually it's an Alpha and the point of all the feedback is that the devs plan to try different permutations of the game so the armor system might not even be there in the release version depending
There're in fact several threads discussing this in one form or another though
That would be a crying shame, and a strong argument against the benefits of acting on feedback... Magic armor in its current form is a really cool concept and something I haven't seen in any other pen and paper rpg style game. It would be a particular shame considering pretty much the only thing that needs to be changed to fix the current implementation is to alter the drop rates of magic armor equipment so that players have access to meaningful quantities of it earlier. Why I like the current 3 bar system is that it is a system that is really easy to comprehend at a glance. I can look at any enemy currently and within seconds I know how to prioritize dealing with it and all I had to do was hover my mouse over the target. Now, let's contrast that with conventional uses of armor/resistances and health. Almost ubiquitously you have a health bar that is clearly visible and if you want to know anything else about the target you need to dig through a menu at the very least. Once you have found the information you want, (which is usually a flat percentage or number by which damage of certain types is reduced) you then have to process that information and consider how to deal with it. The net result is similar, they either have higher effective hp from mitigations or a larger pool, but one is drastically more user friendly than the other and also potentially adds extra neat features. (ex: preventing cc while active) As a side note, this type of multilayered health is by no means a new thing. The first implementation of a similar system that I recall is the shield system in Halo 1 and, depending on how fast an loose you are with the definition of rpg, you could argue that Borderlands pioneered the crossover. With that in mind it isn't brand new tech, but it does stand to bring a lot to the table in the isometric rpg genre.
Chaotic neutral, not chaotic stupid.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2015
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I thought the point of magical and physical armor was precisely to avoid such scenarii?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2015
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Well, since damage is dealt before status effects are applied, and all CC effects I can think of are loaded with quite a bit of damage, your magic armor will be quickly depleted, at which point everything stuns you. I mean, I'm going up against enemies with full magic armor meters, and they're frozen in one Hail Strike, which is an AoE.
So, armor will keep you safe from all status effects while it's up, but it gets burned through very fast. Combat is basically either you do it to them, or they'll do it to you. Or you can play 2H warriors with high initiative and just kill everyone before CC is a factor.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Oct 2016
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I thought the point of magical and physical armor was precisely to avoid such scenarii? If you try to protect vs one you lose to the other, if you try to protect from both they blow through your defense and still hit you. You dont know who does what until they do it and most of the time they do both. Also with the initiative issue they always go first and when you go, you dont get to burn through their defenses. So they essentially get to go twice on your defense bars while doing a lot of damage, especially in classic mode. Playing a mage in classic mode means if you get targeted you are guaranteed to get cc'd heavily.
Last edited by DontTouchMyHoHos; 16/10/16 04:37 PM.
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enthusiast
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Joined: Oct 2016
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I thought the point of magical and physical armor was precisely to avoid such scenarii? If you try to protect vs one you lose to the other, if you try to protect from both they blow through your defense and still hit you. You dont know who does what until they do it and most of the time they do both. You can pre-buff your initiator with Fortify and Armor of Frost before the fight. This worked pretty well for me in my solo runs.
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member
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Joined: Oct 2016
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I thought the point of magical and physical armor was precisely to avoid such scenarii? If you try to protect vs one you lose to the other, if you try to protect from both they blow through your defense and still hit you. You dont know who does what until they do it and most of the time they do both. Also with the initiative issue they always go first and when you go, you dont get to burn through their defenses. So they essentially get to go twice on your defense bars while doing a lot of damage, especially in classic mode. Playing a mage in classic mode means if you get targeted you are guaranteed to get cc'd heavily. Nobody ever got stunlocked from not having physical armor, just sayin. Even so there's no reason you can't go half and half, in fact that's what I always do and I'm probably one of the more avid "there isn't a problem" believers of the bunch.
Chaotic neutral, not chaotic stupid.
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enthusiast
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Joined: Oct 2016
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Nobody ever got stunlocked from not having physical armor, just sayin. Even so there's no reason you can't go half and half, in fact that's what I always do and I'm probably one of the more avid "there isn't a problem" believers of the bunch.
I died a ton to Knockdown Arrow and Battering Ram before I invested properly in physical armor. It's not as likely to CC your whole party, but it's great not to get ruined by those abilities.
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addict
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Joined: Sep 2016
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Well, actually it's an Alpha and the point of all the feedback is that the devs plan to try different permutations of the game so the armor system might not even be there in the release version depending
There're in fact several threads discussing this in one form or another though
That would be a crying shame, and a strong argument against the benefits of acting on feedback... Magic armor in its current form is a really cool concept and something I haven't seen in any other pen and paper rpg style game. It would be a particular shame considering pretty much the only thing that needs to be changed to fix the current implementation is to alter the drop rates of magic armor equipment so that players have access to meaningful quantities of it earlier. Why I like the current 3 bar system is that it is a system that is really easy to comprehend at a glance. I can look at any enemy currently and within seconds I know how to prioritize dealing with it and all I had to do was hover my mouse over the target. Now, let's contrast that with conventional uses of armor/resistances and health. Almost ubiquitously you have a health bar that is clearly visible and if you want to know anything else about the target you need to dig through a menu at the very least. Once you have found the information you want, (which is usually a flat percentage or number by which damage of certain types is reduced) you then have to process that information and consider how to deal with it. The net result is similar, they either have higher effective hp from mitigations or a larger pool, but one is drastically more user friendly than the other and also potentially adds extra neat features. (ex: preventing cc while active) As a side note, this type of multilayered health is by no means a new thing. The first implementation of a similar system that I recall is the shield system in Halo 1 and, depending on how fast an loose you are with the definition of rpg, you could argue that Borderlands pioneered the crossover. With that in mind it isn't brand new tech, but it does stand to bring a lot to the table in the isometric rpg genre. So let me address this in part, before I just woute myself from elsewhere: The current system does add new things; no one is against that. But while the new system is user friendly at a glance, I don't think that makes it more fun. In fact, I'd say it drains away some of the fun from my perspective. It also destroys the importance of Loremaster and information management. Information is king in picking apart an enemy; being able to gain that info so easily is an issue. as for everything else: Now, then the armor system: It has issues and is currently heavily talked about.
The problems:
> Once armor is gone, a player can CC, due to 100% chance when armor is gone, enemies to death, thus making HP moot.
> Skills that restore armor require an enemy to play defensively to use and/or take attention away from being aggressive. Aggressive strategies are the most effective in D:OS games, so the AI breaking from this just weakens their tactics.
> The above points will eventually also apply to players, hopefully, with strong AI in the future
> Powerful tactics, abilities, PC builds, grenades and consumables, and/or terrain advantages make it easy to destroy armor (ie Magical armour mostly)
> Patience and tactics make it easy to divide and conquer enemies and, effectively, avoid planned group encounters or turn group combat into 1v1, 2v4, and so on.
> The current defensive combat abilities hardly impact anything and are very underwhelming compared to other abilities. Players don't feel stronger by using them
> It's easy to gear towards a specific armor type to either hinder/overwhelm enemies, you know about ahead of time.
Now, one suggested solution was to leave the armor system, but switch out the defensive abilities with the old ones (ie Bodybuilding/Willpower/Block). This raised issues by dividing players into camps of "RNG is bad" and "RNG is okay."
Personally, I liked the old system; I thought that it'd be fine to bring it back, into this one, under the new system. For a number of reasons. However, in respect of those who hate RNG, I offer this suggestion:
Armor types of various classifications (ie scale, leather, plate, cloth, ect...) will not only have different bonuses (ex dodge chance on leather) and/or armour defense types in varying values (ie physical = 100 & magical = 30) to differentiate them, but also be divided into sub groups concerning how much of a given attack type a specific armor would absorb.
For example:
A 'light' leather set would have a given value of magical and physical armor and would also have a set ratio of how much of an attack is absorbed by the armor and how much is let through to target vitality based off an absorption attribute (ex absorb = 40% -> Armour absorbs only 40% of damage)
This would give HP purpose again, allow players to strategically decide how important CC defense is vs damage taken, and create greater differentiation among armours; making each armour class and sub classes unique enough to make player gearing of PCs different among different kinds of playthroughs and builds.
This could also indirectly make the Vitality, Magic Armour, and Physical Armour abilities more appealing depending on how they evolve with the system. They could effect the ratios, for instance, or, at minimum, increasing the bonuses they give would also make them more relevant.
Some follow up points:
> Some have also suggested that Damage Mitigation from D:OS should make a return
> By allowing some damage through armour, characters can retain their CC invulnerability for longer and prepare defensive spells easier when they notice they're armour types are breaking
> This done effectively, permanently solved 100% CC chance after armour is completely gone, but maybe players would prefer that overall
> This is by no means a perfect solution and I welcome points of criticism or ways to improve on my suggestion (ex Do you think skills/ablities should be included or changed to account for my proposed system?)
> The above suggestion is a focused evolution of the current system, while placing more power in player decision making. Therefore, keeping the strategic deterministic values players, who dislike RNG, prefer ^ the above was my attempt to help along the evolution of the current armor system. Now, preferably, I'd say just bring back the old defensive abilities and leave the armor system as is. BANG! You get the new system and I get the old one in one package. Now one might argue that would be too strong a defense against CC....my counter is that skills to lower resistances and armor come into play. AI has the same advantages. And the resistance values gained per ability point are lowered EDIT: also chaotic stupid is fun in its own way ;P sometimes theres no greater joy then messing with a DM then by acting outrageously chaotic for the lolz
Last edited by aj0413; 16/10/16 09:38 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2016
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The problems:
> Once armor is gone, a player can CC, due to 100% chance when armor is gone, enemies to death, thus making HP moot.
> Skills that restore armor require an enemy to play defensively to use and/or take attention away from being aggressive. Aggressive strategies are the most effective in D:OS games, so the AI breaking from this just weakens their tactics.
> The above points will eventually also apply to players, hopefully, with strong AI in the future
> Powerful tactics, abilities, PC builds, grenades and consumables, and/or terrain advantages make it easy to destroy armor (ie Magical armour mostly)
> Patience and tactics make it easy to divide and conquer enemies and, effectively, avoid planned group encounters or turn group combat into 1v1, 2v4, and so on.
> The current defensive combat abilities hardly impact anything and are very underwhelming compared to other abilities. Players don't feel stronger by using them
> It's easy to gear towards a specific armor type to either hinder/overwhelm enemies, you know about ahead of time.
First off, I appreciate the well composed argument, that being said I don't view very much of this as being problematic. Everything you listed suggests that the solution is playing tactically around a limited resource. (in this case CC protection) Both iterations of the game are designed around tactical play and not necessarily a fine tuned experience. The volatility of the combat means that, at least on higher difficulties, thoroughly understanding the situation and taking control of it quickly is necessary for reliable success. I think that a lot of your followup points make sense, I just remain completely unconvinced that there is a problem with the current system that needs addressing outside of tweaking the availability of access to it. (in this case making magic armor available earlier)
Chaotic neutral, not chaotic stupid.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2016
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The problems:
> Once armor is gone, a player can CC, due to 100% chance when armor is gone, enemies to death, thus making HP moot.
> Skills that restore armor require an enemy to play defensively to use and/or take attention away from being aggressive. Aggressive strategies are the most effective in D:OS games, so the AI breaking from this just weakens their tactics.
> The above points will eventually also apply to players, hopefully, with strong AI in the future
> Powerful tactics, abilities, PC builds, grenades and consumables, and/or terrain advantages make it easy to destroy armor (ie Magical armour mostly)
> Patience and tactics make it easy to divide and conquer enemies and, effectively, avoid planned group encounters or turn group combat into 1v1, 2v4, and so on.
> The current defensive combat abilities hardly impact anything and are very underwhelming compared to other abilities. Players don't feel stronger by using them
> It's easy to gear towards a specific armor type to either hinder/overwhelm enemies, you know about ahead of time.
First off, I appreciate the well composed argument, that being said I don't view very much of this as being problematic. Everything you listed suggests that the solution is playing tactically around a limited resource. (in this case CC protection) Both iterations of the game are designed around tactical play and not necessarily a fine tuned experience. The volatility of the combat means that, at least on higher difficulties, thoroughly understanding the situation and taking control of it quickly is necessary for reliable success. I think that a lot of your followup points make sense, I just remain completely unconvinced that there is a problem with the current system that needs addressing outside of tweaking the availability of access to it. (in this case making magic armor available earlier) The problem here is that point one makes HP moot. So I ask, what's the point of it? Everything else just drives that point home. It also takes away from difficulty and pressure on the player. This game has turned from a tactical combat situation to a resource management competition. Ergo, this isn't exactly boring or exciting and makes many other things questionable for their very existence Many people have an issue with that. Has nothing to do with how much armor they have or when they get it. The basic reliance on it and it alone is the problem
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member
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Joined: Oct 2016
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HP is not a moot point though, it's your main line of defense. At the end of almost every battle at least one person has one or both of their defenses cracked and survived purely because of their HP. Shields do exactly what they are supposed to do, be a front-loaded buffer against CC and damage. HP is the for once the battle is fully underway and it not intended to provide benefits against CC.
The argument against that as a given is that you don't get access to much magic armor early on so some of the CC heavy fights can be pretty intense for first timers. As I have said now, four times I believe, making magic armor more readily available would clear up almost all the issues people are having.
Chaotic neutral, not chaotic stupid.
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