Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General Talents like Weapon Finesse

Ok I'll give you that, although a mage certainly could afford to throw in a couple points in Ranged over the course of the game. Also, they could invest in Huntsman to boost both spell and bow damage with high ground (though I still think that should buffed to 6 or 7% a point so it's not objectively worse than ranged for actual rangers.) But more importantly the damage from stats is by far the primary influence on your damage. 40 total points in int (easily achievable by end game presumably) would be +150% damage, whereas 10 in ranged is +60%ish (depending on the value of the crit bonus.)

So yeah, the dedicated archer will deal more damage, but for the versatility a zen archery mage would gain, I don't feel like it's THAT significant of a difference.

He mentions D&D because these talent suggestions, "Zen Archery" and "Weapon Finesse", come directly from D&D "Feats" first introduced in 3.X, which was a mess of a system that suffered from "Ivory Tower" game design problems. This isn't the first time someone has suggested rules carried over from D&D (regardless of system context), either.

Requiring a talent to backstab is awful because it places a mandatory talent that all scoundrels have to spend a talent on in order to do their job competently. Essentially, other classes/specializations will always have one extra talent option over them. In D&D, this problem was identified as a "Feat Tax".

A better solution would to just make backstab efficiency tied to levels in scoundrel. This way a mage can't equip a pair of daggers and be as effective as a scoundrel without any investment required.

Of course I'm not sure how that would work with the current benefit of backstabbing being an all-or-nothing 100% crit chance. I still think they should change it to a damage multiplier without guaranteed criticals; scoundrels would then be able to benefit from sources of crit chance via wits or gear.

They should apply 'Backstabbing' just to dagger. If you equip a dagger you can backstab with it, otherwise you can't.

Yes. Change the dagger's damage or critical multiplier, or something else, but please, ditch the Backstabber Talent. It was somewhat annoying in D:OS 1, but that game gave you two starting Talents and a third at level 2 or 3. This game gives you one and the next at level 4, making the Talent Tax of Backstabber move from annoying to detrimental.

You do realize that you referenced stats and skills or whatever in the same thing, acting like they're the same thing?

Yes, you can raise int a shitload... but you can also raise, say, dex a shitload. And you can put points in dex AND ranged.

The point we're all getting at is that requiring a talent to use a weapon effectively, and then making it less effective than just hybriding out your stats is a bad idea.

Yes I realize that, hence acknowledging a ranger invest fully in dex and Ranged would have a 50+% damage advantage over a zen archery mage fully invested in int with no points in ranged (which, of course, a mage could still probably afford 2-3 points in Ranged anyway, plus Huntsman, which would benefit spells and ranged alike).

And while that's a significant damage differential, relative to the effect of attributes (a 150% damage bonus), the zen archer would not be really that far beyond the pure archer in terms of damage. Thus, the zen archer would have both potent magic and physical damage at their disposal, which is a versatility that is very strong with the current armor system. Sure, it's just a talent to use a weapon effectively. But it would grant access to both powerful spells and strong physical ranged attacks.

I mean, maybe it isn't as strong as I think it is. But I don't think it should be underestimated. Just looks at the power of staves. The way a 2-handed warfare char can easily swap to a staff to do massive magic damage with rage, the most powerful magic damage in the game, really, shows you how good easy access to both types of damage is. Presumably later in the game good staves will be gated behind intelligence requirements, and since strength doesn't increase staff damage, this strategy won't be as good. But if a warfare could use staves as well as physical two-handers late game with just strength investment, damage mages will be basically obsolete as they are now.

Hybridizing the current way would lead to a MUCH greater reduction in damage for both magic and ranged attacks, not to mention a lack of memory to take advantage of all the skills.

All that said, Zen archery would need some way to distinguish itself from regular dex archery, and I don't think an +AP cost with +accuracy is quite the way to do it. I'm not sure what would be right solution, but some way to embed magic into your arrow shots without turning them into worse wands would be cool.

I knew this would be a can of worms

Well, in DnD Zen-Archery was an awesome trait, that brought a nice bit of flexibility.
But when I look at the questionable balancing of D:OS2 right now... well, then I wouldn't make things even harder for Larian...