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#599917 13/02/17 07:38 AM
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I understand the initiative and the trap detection is handy however the crit chance is kinda useless for backstabbers and self-rage based classes too. My suggestion is for it is to provide 0.1 ms or a 1% ms increase per level so its useful on all classes.

Last edited by Bullethose; 13/02/17 03:27 PM. Reason: Changed title to encourage discussion
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What do you mean by MS?

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movespeed sorry old habits die hard


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That will just make it even weaker. Current Wit allow you to you to grab a bow and still deal huge damage after Rage goes on cool down. It might look bleh right now because Act 1 is really short and everything dies in 1-2 turns but when we start reaching level 12 or 13 on full release, the higher crit chance from getting wits for ini will make crit a lot more consistent to be used as reliable damage boost especially on Crossbow user where that 1 AP to use rage can prevent you from shooting twice.

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Originally Posted by Ellezard
That will just make it even weaker. Current Wit allow you to you to grab a bow and still deal huge damage after Rage goes on cool down. It might look bleh right now because Act 1 is really short and everything dies in 1-2 turns but when we start reaching level 12 or 13 on full release, the higher crit chance from getting wits for ini will make crit a lot more consistent to be used as reliable damage boost especially on Crossbow user where that 1 AP to use rage can prevent you from shooting twice.


Havent you argued before that Wit is maybe the most powerful attributes?

I don't disagree with you on this, so wouldn't a nerf like this be in order?

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@when did i say i think the crit chance is bad in general. I see the value in it my request is to make it more neutral and provide more incentive for rage builds/backstabbing. The main negatives i see with this change is to ranged dps (which has its own crit chance increase) and savage sortiliege classes (though you can fit rage into this play-style)

Last edited by Bullethose; 13/02/17 03:16 PM.

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i was just claiming that i think its maybe a little too strong already, thats all.

and yes, less useful on rogues, but initiative is so awesome already and important in this game.

Last edited by Rowy; 13/02/17 03:32 PM.
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yeah i get the usefulness of initiative i just want to able to get it on my rogue without feeling it's even a little bit inefficient.

Last edited by Bullethose; 13/02/17 03:42 PM.

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Could always implement a Double critical system.

Probably not for the same damage (or maybe so).

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Wit doesn't really need rework.

Backstabber and Savage Sortilege need rework.

Backstabber should be a % damage increase when backstabbing, not an auto-crit.
Savage Sortilege should be 100% conversion instead of 50%.

Could also make it so crit chance above 100% increase critical damage by the % above 100.

Last edited by snap; 13/02/17 04:53 PM.
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It's like that in classic. I'm guessing ever since larian introduced dual-wielding they're scared it'll make backstabber op if they revert it back to % based damage.
Edit: classic backstab increased the damage by 50%

Last edited by Bullethose; 13/02/17 05:03 PM.

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Originally Posted by Bullethose
It's like that in classic. I'm guessing ever since larian introduced dual-wielding they're scared it'll make backstabber op if they revert it back to % based damage.

Dual wielding is already too strong. At level 5, I'm already critting for around 60-70 damage with a Backstab.

I'd say dual wand is too strong too if it wasn't for the fact that wands are terrible in the first place. Equip a Poison wand in main hand and Fire wand in off hand and enjoy the ridiculous Poison + Fire combo coming out of them.

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yeah as a guy who mained rogue in ee and classic i enjoy the new rogue alot more being able to kill the backliners with ease. Rogue is in a good place im mostly annoyed about how useless the crit chance is on rogue considering how good initiative and trap detec are.

Last edited by Bullethose; 13/02/17 05:15 PM.

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Originally Posted by snap
Wit doesn't really need rework.

Backstabber and Savage Sortilege need rework.

Backstabber should be a % damage increase when backstabbing, not an auto-crit.
Savage Sortilege should be 100% conversion instead of 50%.

Could also make it so crit chance above 100% increase critical damage by the % above 100.


I dunno about backstabber not critting automatically. +50% damage would make it worse off most of the time, but on crits would be devastating. Just a lot less reliable for a class that needs reliability to survive.

The crit chance above 100% increasing critical damage is an interesting idea though. Lets wits be made more versatile without getting a straight up buff (though I do think people overrate initiative a little). Of course, +1% crit damage (or chance for that matter) really don't compare to +5% overall damage of primary stats, but at least it's something useful for rogues when going for wits for initiative.

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Originally Posted by snap
I'd say dual wand is too strong too if it wasn't for the fact that wands are terrible in the first place.
You are wrong. No-one uses dual wands to attack. You use dual wands because one has +3 and the other has +5.

Then you hit them with the spells you remembered.

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Last patch I attacked with dual wand pretty often. Mainly just to get the magic armor down, without having to wasted one of my spells. My mage was more on support build though and the only magic attacker in the group. But the benefit from dual wand over staff is definitely, that you get more modificators.

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hm stemming off of your idea, what if the extra crit affected accuracy. Like 110% gives you +10% accuracy or +5% accuracy? Where the numbers gets divided down after the 100% and added onto the accuracy? I feel this would make it easier for rogues to kill well other rogues and rangers whom have high evasion chance.

Last edited by Bullethose; 13/02/17 09:21 PM.

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Originally Posted by Rowy

Havent you argued before that Wit is maybe the most powerful attributes?

I don't disagree with you on this, so wouldn't a nerf like this be in order?


Wit being the most powerful is because other stats are way too weak. Even then, majority of the stats in the game actually has a purpose right now and will get better as the game goes on with a few exception

Con - It sucks because of how the physical/magic armour work that you can just grab int/str instead and still be tankier.

Mem - It gets weaker because level 6+ equipment from seeker camp like Feder the pig girl pretty much gives ton of memory. With so many +1 or +2 mem gears later, you end up having too many slots with random spells you never use except for questing purpose if you invest in Mem.

These 2 stats need a buff or some kind of game mechanic changes to make them better, like introducing more basic spells that actually eat 2 slots like Walk-in-shadow.This kind of changes will make Mem better especially if they are combat spells.

In case of nerfing Wit, the game needs to introduce some kind of "Team Initiative" to prevent the whole "Focus fire the same squishies on the first turn with your rangers to gib him right away" strategy that is almost impossible to balance without being super cheap in return.

% crit chance and so on are stuffs you want around because it introduces consistency to future build that relies on crit. When fight starts lasting longer than 2 turns, those extra crit chance will really kick in and work as a potential damage steroid.

===

Also, Fin is the better one to get MS bonus, which will suck because you can already get MS from Scoundel bonus, Haste and Adrenaline.

At least with current Wit, you can always swap your knife char to either Spear or Bow as well with the Wit-Fin build because Scoundrel gives Crit damage bonus, allowing you to still do huge damage while Rage is down because you're not going to be swapping 2 knives back on for that AP cost. The MS instead of Crit chance will just nerf the versatility.

Last edited by Ellezard; 14/02/17 01:06 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ellezard

Con - It sucks because of how the physical/magic armour work that you can just grab int/str instead and still be tankier.


I have absolutely no idea at all why people say this. Can someone enlighten me? Because as far as I can tell, the math just flat out does. not. work.

One point of CON gives you +7% health. That is +7 units of survivability per 100 health you have. One point of INT/STR gives you +2% armor. That is +2 units of survivability per 100 armor you have.

7 > 2

So why do people say that CON is worse for survivability when you need to spend three and a half times as many points to get the same +survivability?

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Originally Posted by Stabbey
Originally Posted by Ellezard

Con - It sucks because of how the physical/magic armour work that you can just grab int/str instead and still be tankier.


I have absolutely no idea at all why people say this. Can someone enlighten me? Because as far as I can tell, the math just flat out does. not. work.

One point of CON gives you +7% health. That is +7 units of survivability per 100 health you have. One point of INT/STR gives you +2% armor. That is +2 units of survivability per 100 armor you have.

7 > 2

So why do people say that CON is worse for survivability when you need to spend three and a half times as many points to get the same +survivability?


Because the health you're getting is vitality while the other one is armour. In a game where perma CC is how you win fights, that 2% point of armour has way more impact than that 7% health. 20 extra armour can prevent a knock down from a battering Ram. Extra 100 health won't help if your turn is skipped.

Last edited by Ellezard; 14/02/17 02:08 PM.
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