Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - General Talents like Weapon Finesse

What are peoples thoughts on talents like weapon finesse (or zen archery) existing in this game? What I mean are talents that you can take that say something like "weapons now consider your finesse (intelligence, et cetera) level instead of your strength level when determining damage"?

I know that there are already finesse based weapons, such as spears, and int based weapons like staves; basically I was playing a battlemage archetype and it seemed to me that choosing to wield swords for aesthetic reasons (and thus splitting my stat allocations between int and strength) left me a little lacking in both rather than, say, playing the exact same archetype of magical bruiser but choosing to wield a staff in place of swords - wherein I would still have a weapon for melee attacks and warfare skills however I could prioritise int more highly as it would effect both my spells and my staff damage.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be repercussions for trying to hybridize, but these sort of talents would allow me to wield the weapons that I want, while still prioritising int, as opposed to biting the bullet and just equipping a staff. The draw back, of course, on a character that decided to do such a thing would be the expenditure of one of their talent points to receive this benefit.

Anyway, are these sort of talents good? Do they offer flexibility or tend to homogenize builds? Let me know your thoughts!

Cheers

Classes like mages would probably hardly profit. Even if you go full int the sword would still deal physical damage while your skills deal magical. But a rogue-warfare-hybrid could get to strong if you are able to go full finesse and still use Warfare-Skills at max capacity by equipping a strength-based weapon just for the skills.

Did you know that Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition removed Weapon Finesse because it was a bad idea?

They should never EVER implement a system where you need a talent to even use your own character.

Nope and I don't care.

We are talking about DOS2.

What like requiring backstab talent to backstab someone?

Fine then I'll be a backstabbing scoundrel (without taking backstab) and add some other talent. Should I get backstab just because I'm holding a dagger?

What if I'm a mage? Should I get backstab if happen to hold daggers?

Which DOS2 removed.

I'd like to be able to use my strength for a bow or crossbow so I can make a plate Warfare warrior that uses a Bow.

Well, that is common game mistake that bow requires Dexterity only.
Maby for short horse riding bows with effective range up to 40m. But for classic foot bowman especially longbow you need a hell lot of strength.

When you get 80 pound bow (which is pretty average army bow), that means the user need to pull that weight by (mostly) one hand. And do that 10times per minute. Common military drill. Try that by yourself

e.g.
For aim you need Dex.
For dmg. and range you need Str.
Heavy armour might reduce agility only, therfore aim. In fact chest plate armor is ok for archer. They didnt use it, becouse of price, but it is ok.For example, Italian wealthy crossbowman used plate armor chest.

Conclusion:
What archer should be forbidden are helmets, masks and gloves. All these reduce environment awareness, aim and/or speed.
Heavy armor should reduce/cap max Dex. Therfore dodge and aim. Headgear should reduce visibility - which was unfortunately removed since DOS1. That factor should come back because of marksman.

Marksman should be buffed regarding range. I mean bow (not crossbow) dmg and range should be linked to Str. Generally, 1vs1, Marksman should be able to get down mage if marksman has range advantage.

It isn't a mistake...

Ignoring the Compound Bow thing...

A lot of it is trying to make sure a system doesn't boil down to using a ton of stats.

For example... Swordmenship still needs significant dexterity in order to be an effective fighter. You need intelligence to learn the moves. You need Wisdom to read the opponent.

Yada yada.

The usual excuse as to why Bows deal damage with Dexterity is it basically is just assuming you are launching the bows at the maximum strength the strings can manage... But the damage comes mainly from being able to hit your opponent in vital locations.

Some games though do use strength.

Exalted, for example, uses Strength for damage bonus (to a limit with normal weapons... no limit if they are artifact weapons.)

Compound Bows in 3.5 and Pathfinder have a damage bonus based on strength to a limit set by the bow.

I could possibly see a talent to let, say, and archer use intelligence, but there would probably have to be some kind of penalty of 30% damage penalty to bows (though intelligence would increase damage of bows as well, so with high enough intelligence it would counteract that penalty). There'd still be a certain advantage for a pure intelligence user over a hybrid, but not a gigantic one.

It still sounds like a huge can of worms even if it's a fun concept.

Composite bow makes a bow smaller, but the pull power is required still the same. Modern compound, which uses system of pulleys was invented about 40 years ago. Never used in a fight. Also they are fragile and repairs need good equipped workshop. You would not get these to any adventure expedition.
Rule sounds good, but do not mix compound and composite terms.

There is an real example of japanese archers. They shoot incredibely precise but slow. Its more like ritual art shooting. So, maby a good disadvantage could be more AP consumed. Everything else might stay as it is. Multi class could be an mage with low memory, few spells. Who he throws his spells then shoot until cooldown of spells comes up.
Yes. Zen archery I would see a Zen archery spice for an DLC or an Enhanced edition.

Well, this makes me idea, currently the requirement of weapons are lower, so ... . A mage who shoots magic arrows mostly can happen now.

Are you mad? Already you get 95% accuracy for 3AP with a crossbow of your own level. Take away 10 or 20 or 30 for some other level? It already happens.

What do you want? 150% accuracy and then go and have a cup of tea for a couple of rounds?

We talk about Zen archery. e.g. use Int instead of Dex. Therefore a price should be paid.

I think+1 to +2AP AP and +2 to +6% acc for Zen Archery sounds good to me. But a real test would do.

This type of archery should be like secondary/utility weapon. Just a way how to spend your time until spells are ready. So it should be visible less AP efficient then usuall.

I disagree. You shouldn't be punished for taking a talent to use an alternate stat (Thus, y'know, wasting a talent anyway) by losing out on action economy.

Taking a talent Zen A. you get an advantage. But you do not get same result as regular archer. Got it?

Yes. You've burned / wasted a talent on just... swapping what a set of weapons scale off of. That, by itself, is detrimental enough to make such a talent hardly worth it, let alone bogging it down with things that make it literally useless.

If you spend a talent, it should either be nothing but benefit, or if it has downsides the benefits should be freaking HUGE.
Spending a talent just to change what a few (or even ALL) weapons scaled off of is, itself, not really worth a talent. Then adding downsides onto that talent makes it objectively bad.

Using D&D (Specifically Pathfinder) as a reference ; rogues get the ability to use weapon finesse not only on a specific EXTRA weapon, but also get weapon finesse for free, and add dex to damage and not just to-hit.

What you're suggesting would be, say, making a rogue buy weapon finesse, except on top of it only working for to-hit, it also only gives you one point of to-hit bonus for every other point of dexterity mod you have.

Assuming you don't care about D&D / Pathfinder just take this tl;dr - while making there indeed be talents that make your weapons scale off other attributes itself isn't bad... making those talents objectively worse than just investing a couple of fare more plentiful stat points into the basic stat is BAD.

Being able to use a bow with int as a mage would be pretty strong I think. Access to ranged physical damage as a mage that's equal to a standard dex ranger isn't a huge bonus to you? Normally the cost of hybridizing is less damage, but with no penalty (except a talent point, which is a loss but not a huge one), intelligence archery would let your char deal with physical and magic armor enemies with near equal effectiveness, opening fights with snipe and ricochet shots being especially potent.

+1 AP cost per shot sounds like a bit much, but not sure what other simple downside would work. Possibly if accuracy was more of an actual issue in the game, a +10-15% accuracy bonus in addition to the +1 AP cost would make up for it a bit.

It absolutely isn't equal to a normal finesse ranger.

Mages CANNOT afford to spend points into weapon combat abilities like Ranged because it doesn't increase their spell damage, unlike Rangers whom get damage increased on their Huntsman abilities from spending points in Ranged.

It would be FAR FAR better for the game to introduce "Hybrid" weapons to so speak.

So a intelligence based ranged weapon that works as a weapon for Archery skills.

It could be balanced simply by adjusting the weapon itself.

Worst idea ever.
Every Stats should have their use.

NWN is completly unbalanced because of feats(skill) like these.