Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Patch 6 Destroyed Player Agency with Astarion

I agree with you Mirmi, this is the most simplest request ever that all it takes is just disabling a facial expression during a kiss or replacing it with another.

It does not require endless debates on right or wrong and other deep philosophical aspects, all it requires is for each individual to say "I romance Astarion, I want/don't want it to change". Simple as that.

Personally I as a player do not care whatsoever about whatever the terrified expression of my character during the kiss is "supposed to represent", it looks dumb because that is not how my character would react at all. Some are born to rule, some are born to serve, and some are happy to serve.

My evil Durge would be fully into it, giggling the whole way

Is this relationship wrong? Yes. Toxic? Yes. There are no vampires in real life, thank the gods. And that's the kind of "people" you should run away from. Why save yourself from a pixel character? Might as well break into my house and smash my computer and say, "you're being rescued, please don't fight back."

Why doesn't anyone want to save me from Halsin? Creepy guy. In real life, he'd call me on the phone, silent and sighing languidly into the receiver.
If you look at all the characters through the lens of realism instead of the fictional world, they all have trouble in the head.

Except I don't want to be the princess rescued from the clutches of a dragon. I might want to degrade. There are succubi, bears, brothels, murder without consequences, goblin children, a program to launch dwarves into space, and more.

And the last thing I want is to apply the morality of reality to the pixel.


I'm not a native speaker either, but we understand each other perfectly. You have nothing to worry about and thank you for your opinion, I understand you very much.)))

If Tav plays "Freedom?", it turns into a nasty angsty pressure.

Hyper protection, guardianship, possessiveness - in case Tav chooses to play the " flourishing and "what do you want?" line. If Astarion wants to watch, fine.
I could say he's jealous and worried that the companions will blab about the "unholy union" and take away his Tav, but there's no point Tav is already in a contract with the devil.
Astarion: We have eternity for chit-chat, my love the others only get you for tonight. I can't keep you all to myself.
So he's pretty calm. There's a reason he killed Tav and bound them to himself. The great plan.

Yeah, he'll always have Tav in his claws, is not open end. Astarion decided. He also sort of decided not to torture Tav-victim, but to have Tav enjoy things with him. Depends on Tav how aggressiveness, unpleasant it is for Tav.

I meant in the prism of sarcasm that he remains a sadist no open ending. Maybe I didn't put it that well, sorry.)
Personally, I like the "I'm always watching" atmosphere. It can also be understood as : "just try to disobey me and you'll know the consequences" or "You can get drooling drunk and be taken home instead of left in a ditch". ))))
I don't even know who suffers more from this relationship (just kidding).

The finale does give wagering in both the "I want freedom" and "it's good that we're together" realms. Freedom for interpretation and your game.

Exactly this.


The Epilogue is perfection. Astarion and his consort are flourishing side by side, his consort has wealth, power, pleasure, decadence, all what they wish. There is nothing, absolutely nothing "sadistic" in it.
His consort is his most precious companion.

Exactly. When I heard Astarion's answers on the "freedom" line, it was exactly the same emotion Astarion must have felt, to hear, how many people are calling him cazador. "Gods, not this again...",
you clearly hear, how it was meant, lol.

Crowd: You are an abuser, you are cazador! You must be stopped!
Astarion: Gods, not this again... (Try to wound me all you like)


These OOC behaviours/taking agency away from players in a romance kiss the players let their even non-spawn tadpoled character ask for, are the greatest nonsense on earth, and most people know that.

There are all sorts of reasons.
But they all break down about the tadpole plot and that Tav chooses this path of vice.
So you see it's simple "evil choices must be punished", "choices must have consequences".
That good doesn't always bring reward, it's sacrifice and hard, and sometimes cruelty and vice, makes "sugar", no one probably thought.

Astarion: Lorroakan's won immortality and all it took was heartless cruelty. A lesson, perhaps.
And he approves of it, it's not a judgmental tone.

Some fighting for "story integrity" probably, about serious topics that need to be told. They should be, but the tadpole keeps the "abusive story" from being told as well as Tav's positive responses in the epilogue.
I could reason on this however my hands are a bit tied without the story of the Magistrate, from which Act 1 was written and was a key character idea, and all the approving, little details. They remain but it feels more like a ruin of a narrative than a presence that would be possible to parse seriously.
The integrity of the story, "An abuser who found another abuser. The victim-abuser," must be told.

Even during the ritual, the narrator says "Redemption". What? Astarion is not responsible for the Master's orders, nothing at all. Even if he didn't feel anything. There was no choice. For behaving badly, for being power-hungry? Well, Astarion is a narcissist and loves killing, this is going to be hard for him to redeem. (and lame)
Redemption implies that someone has willfully done something very bad. Redemption of sin, of guilt.

I'm assuming you mean Tav's expression here, so please correct me if that is wrong.
That statement is only true if the player's personal head-cannon says Tav is romancing A.A. while being terrified of him. If that's how you see it, go you! However, it is still a blatant case of removing player agency because players who are pursuing this romance without feeling their Tav would be afraid are now being railroaded by the game.

Edit: But why would Tav romance someone they no longer love and are afraid of? And, even if they did do that, why would they willingly approach A.A. and ask him for a kiss?
I completely fail to see the logic here.

Tav's expression is 'sought after'. I'm a little confused, sought after by who? A.A? the player? the story writers? Perhaps you could clarify.

Looking at recent responses, I do wonder if part of the problem is that some people are not used to Role Playing Games and therefore do not understand why player agency matters in this particular genre. It is a major breach of etiquette to take control of another player's character in an RP situation.
BG3 aims to replicate the TTRPG experience as closely as possible and for the most part, I think it has succeeded in doing that. So, seeing something introduced in a later patch that removes player agency is very disappointing. Considering not just the loss of player agency but also how triggering these expressions have been for some players, I think asking for them to be changed is perfectly reasonable.

All arguments about A.A.s nature or the likely outcome of romancing him are irrelevant to this discussion. It doesn't matter if he is the most evil creature to walk Faerun or if he is a font of goodness who wants to take care of all the orphans and lost dogs in Baldur's Gate. The issue is the loss of player agency. By giving Tav such negative expressions, the player's responses to him are now being railroaded where previously they were not.

That said, I do find it interesting that it is only Astarion who seems to have provoked some sort of moral panic; a topic for another thread perhaps.

I thought the exact same thing when I heard it for the first time!


Thou shall use these holy words against the non-believers of the UA church! Shame them and make them see how sinful they are! They must see the light, repent and be converted to the one TRUE path!!!


THE HOLY WORDS OF THE UNASCENDED ASTARION CHURCH:

1. Ascended Astarion is Cazador 2.0.
2. You are continuing the cycle of abuse.
3. You failed to save him from himself.
4. He doesn't love Tav.
5. He lost his soul in the ritual / he's not himself.
6. You condone abuse by liking him.
7. He's toxic, I feel for you because you'll likely end up in that kind of relationship in real life.
8. He's trapped forever.
9. You are his Spawn, he is your master, he controls you!
10. AA should be killed.
11. You are delulu if you believe he cares, he's a monster.
12. You are nothing but his dog / slave.
13. If you loved him, you wouldn't choose to ascend him.
14. Astarion has so much content in the game and it's your fault.
15. You requested this / you asked for this.
16. Don't be emotional because you are not human.
17. Alt + F4.
18. "Evil" is "Bad".
19. This is why women should not be allowed to play video games.
20. You denied him healing.
21. You need therapy.





And from another AA thread:





I'm tired of being preached at.

The word masturbatory is not used in a sexual sense here. It means that I believe it's gratifying the self over the needs of the story. Every ending becomes favorable and depth is replaced with that gratification... which I would add ruins the story for many of us who are also fans.

I don't believe anyone is calling anyone stupid. I'm not sure where that came from.


I don't see how there's anything wrong with folks saying, "this is why I believe what I believe." This is a discussion thread. It's discussion. I feel like efforts to shut down that portion of the conversation are somewhat bullying in nature.


I appreciate that you would prefer another look for your character.

But it basically comes down to this: it's impossible to have a scene showing any reaction from Tav/Durge without going against someone's expectation of their character. The only solution to that is to not show Tav at all. Even a "neutral" appearance will go against some people's idea of how Tav would react. In short, I believe it's an unreasonable expectation.

This is noticeable from the very opening of the game. Tav sees the first dead mind flayer on the nautiloid and says, "Dead. Good." Well, what if I'm playing someone who doesn't think death is good? What if my character wouldn't look shocked when Withers suddenly rises in the dank crypt?

As such, decisions have to be made. Those decisions should--in my opinion--serve the story itself.

***

There was some talk earlier in the thread about Gale becoming a god and succumbing to his hubris. It was mentioned that there are other ways to interpret that.

I would point out something Gale says much earlier in the story:


My point is, this stuff is deeply embedded within the narrative. It leads to the outcomes and sets up the emotional depth present within the outcomes. In my opinion, much of this is surprisingly well done.

I can appreciate someone wanting to just fall in love with Gale and live happily with the god of ambition, not wanting to believe that Gale is no longer Gale. But that's not the story being told. Every outcome cannot be serenades and roses.

God you saved me! I was almost convinced to believe, that Astarion is indeed an abuser and needs to be killed, I was already ingame, to stop him abusing my poor helpless Tav, to kill that monster and to reload my latest old save from act 1, they had very good arguments!
Thanks for that compendium! I appreciate it.

Oh my gosh. Where are the Gur when we need them? Oh yeah, Astarion killed them.

jk

21. You need therapy

Wow, thank you! I'm going to make myself a "bingo" sign with this and cross out if I see these arguments.
I'm afraid I've never yelled "bingo" so many times in my life.))

This is not discussion thread. This is suggestion and feedback thread. And your analyzes ( not specifically you) of Astarion distract from the main topic and get lost. There are other topics for discussion where characters are discussed.
https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=101&page=1

I too wondered if giving Tav a more positive response would be railroading, but I don't share your conclusions. I think you need to look at the context:
Right up to the final boss, Tav is in a consensual relationship. Tav can leave A.A. at any point.
Now, your personal head-cannon may be that Tav is no longer feeling the same way about A.A. but to continue a romance with somebody you fear is a rather unusual thing to do if leaving the romantic partner has no negative consequences and in-game there are no negative consequences.

Tav has to go up to A.A. and ask for a kiss. Again, where is the logic in doing that if Tav fears him?
If the player has got to the point where they cannot break off the relationship but would like to, it is very, very unlikely they would ask for a kiss.

As I have said before, this is supposed to be a romance, a little fluff and fun aside from the main story, I honestly don't think Larian intended any players to feel bad about their romantic choices, at least I would hope not. When I buy a video game, I want to be entertained, not preached at.

Added it. Let me know if I missed anything else.

English isn't my first language. It's only used in a sexual context In my language. That understanding of the word in that context is also "stupid" coming from a toxic fandom.
I'd still prefer a word that makes less of a sexual reference.

I don't understand how your "Abuse Story" tower holds up as Tav literally has answers for AA "we are flourishing", "are we a spectacle", "do you want something?" - in the epilogue.
There's no point in Tav saying that if Astarion is cruel to Tav all these six months.
No, this "abusive history" is falling apart, only an 80% rewrite will change that.

Is a Suggestions & Feedback thread.

If you wanted to delve into the romance and how it was written it would be obvious that Tav's frightened "abusive victim" face is a great nonsense inappropriate for Tav, for the story, for the player, for the Twitter post on February 14 showing just that out of a dozen other kisses as the release of the fanservice 6 patch.

Sure, but I consider part of the entertainment to be the story itself. The emotional ups and downs, the consequences and results. The things that make me laugh, yes, and the things that make me exited, of course, but also the things that leave a lump in my throat. It's all part of the package we call entertainment.

Again, to reiterate, not everything can be serenades and roses. That would not be entertaining. The story goes somewhere. The vile ritual changes Astarion, without a doubt. It's baked in.

As far as asking for a kiss, frankly I view that as a game mechanic. A necessary evil. That's not how a relationship works. In life, you may be sitting next to your loved one and make eye contact and lean in for a kiss. You don't walk up to them all business like and say, "May I have the honor of a kiss?"

But in the game, something needs to trigger the scene. Thus.

100 % Agree! Well said! Also: Every other kisses are consensual and tavs are happy. You could also argue, that their Tavs don't like to kiss and they should put unhappy faces on them! Why do you insist on AA romance Tavs, that they don't want to kiss their partner or should have unhappy faces? One question @JandK Are you romancing this man with your character after ascension?

This. We're being told to stick to AA threads:


But then the same people who don't like AA come to his threads, shame his fans, and try to get into pointless debates to derail feedback threads and possibly get them locked.

So, yeah, this is a discussion thread.

If I am mistaken and discussion is not allowed in this thread, then I would request a moderator to please pop in and let us know.

*

In my opinion, the whole "this isn't a discussion thread" narrative hints of a bullying nature that is trying to shut down opposing opinions.