Larian Studios Forums Divinity: Original Sin 2 Divinity - Original Sin 2 - Suggestions and Feedback Non-summoner creatures seem broken on Summoner

So I made my main character a summoner. While I do believe that summoning, just like in the first game, makes it to easy to distract enemies, soak hits and deal damage with no real penalty (and other reasons described by Testing here http://larian.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=618180#Post618180) and is generally the easiest of all the combat skills, it seems to me Larian forgot to balance the scaling of non-summoner creatures like the bone widow, artillery plant and others.

Let's look at the Bone Widow first.



All the following summons are based on a level 13 character with 10 points in summoning.
First of all, I realize that the bone widow costs one AP more than the Incarnate, despite this the Bone Widow has significantly more HP and more damage output.
Even with a power infusion which equalizes the AP cost, the Incarnate will have a combined hitpoints of just roughly 1600 compared to the Bone Widows 3700. Keep in mind that the bone widow also has a teleport ability, which you would additionally have to infuse on the incarnate, driving his cost up to 4 AP. Even then, the Bone Widow will deal 1/3rd more damage and has Double the overall HP.

You could argue that the lack of magic armor makes the Bone Widow very vulnerable to CC, but that is neglectable because of the massive healthpool.

Think about that for a second. 3700 HP at level 13 with 10 points in summoning. With half my attributes in constitution, my player characters have just around 1100-1200. No enemy at an equal level could possibly kill it until the 5 turn cooldown is down, where I can just recast the creature. 300 Damage is more than any of my main characters weapon attacks can deal.

Yes, the Incarnate is more versatile, yes it can potentionally deal every damage type, but if I have to spend more Action Points on it than on the Bone Widow, to have LESS than half HP and deal 2/3rds of the damage, why shouldn't I just start with a widow everytime and spam totems afterwards? What does the damage type matter when the bone widows kills any enemy before the Incarnate regardless?

Now let's look at the Artillery Plant.

This time around it's not the healthpool that is what catches the eye, but the damage. The Bone Widows damage is already higher than anything the Incarnate can dash out, but the Artillery Plant makes both pale in comparison.



Here I compared the Artillery Plants ranged attack (spore attack) to the Incarnates Infused ranged attack.
Both of these summons then take 3 AP to cast, with the addition of a Source Point for the Artillery Plant.
You could dismiss this as the source point justifying more damage, but thats 1081 damage against 182, no crits.

No other skill ( that requires one source point) that a player character can learn can deal this much damage. Most other source based attacks at level 13, with 10 points in the respective skill, deal around 300-400 damage.

It's even more absurd if you consider that a Geomancer can learn the same skill that the Artillery Plant is using, but he needs 2 source points and 3 AP, while the Summoner can cast the Artillery plant for one source point, which then can cast this attack without source, two times before it dissapears after 5 turns, WHILE the summoner is free to do anything he likes afterwards.

Why are the non-summon summons so much stronger overall? The Incarnate is the summoners main pet, he is designed around it, afterall most his skillbooks add on it.

The only explaination I have is that it's simply an oversight.
I think the devs didn't playtest how these skills scale when used by a summoner main instead of a necro/geomancer.
With no points in summoning, the bone widow and artillery plant seem much more reasonable, thats how they were probably designed.
With points in summoning, it just breaks the game.

Another example:

Fire slug's laser damage on a full summoner at level 15: 1000-1100.

PC with 45 int and 18 pyro at level 15 laser damage: 700-800.

Fire slug on non-summoner pyro: 600-700.


I think the entire problem lies around the multiplier given by Soul Bond. 10% per point makes WAY too much of a difference.

In other words: scaling an ability through summoning (Artillery plant) is far better than scaling it yourself (Acid spores and Geo)

As I said, there are many things that make summoner overpowered as hell, your point is valid too.


They already made the first game much easier as they distracted enemies attacks away from your party and could deal decent damage themselves, but the problem is even worse now.

I can, without exaggerating, get through equally leveled encounters on tactician by casting four summons from a distance, walking them into combat and simply out DPSing any enemies, without the threat of my party being hurt. That isn't just some slight imbalance.

Ok thats another thing entirely. Summons are useful and strong for a variety of reasons. My only problem is that I cant outdamage a fking snail with my laser. Thats what I have a problem with.

It seems to get worse the further I progress aswell, because of the mechanic your thread mentions

I still think the incarnate is wayyy stronger those both of those options... my incarnate does 500-600 damage per attack and can usually attack twice per turn dealing 1000-1200 damage per turn.. and usually knocking the enemy down in the process... often times the enemy also tries to run away and gets hit a third time by opportunist.. if they still survived all that they are very low on hp with their armor broken.


i just dont see how your doing such pitifully small damage with the incarnate... you realize that each infusion gives it +25% damage as well (though it is not shown it does in fact give it +25% damage per infusion)

not to mention the incarnate lasts a much longer time than the bone widow and plant... meaning you can spent your AP elsewhere without worrying about having to resummon it.

I wonder, how broken Ifan wolf must be with 1 source and 3 AP costs and maxed out summunor.

I wanted to try it out, but regarding how buggy quest log and so seem to be, I don't really feel like playing.

Whats your level? You realize damage scaling goes up exponentionally?



The exact same goes for for the bone widow, 2 attacks, attack of opportunity.

Guys, you have to compare possible damage per turn to really compare damage numbers.

Basic attack is just one part of the formula, what really should be done when comparing incarnates is comparing damage of fireball+whirlwind in one turn (with lets say 3 people hit on average?), ranged attack+battering ram in second turn and just basic attacks or whatever comes off CD 3rd turn - and compare that to other summons, to really have a bigger picture here.

Also what elemental infusion are you using on your incarnate for testing? It makes quite a difference aswell, regarding armors and damage.



BUT I absolutely agree that other summons are just busted, they are way too overscaled like this imo. What would be quite good potentially would be to have 5% for nonsummon tree summons, and 10% for incarnate... So those summons are still useful for non-summoner classes (without nerfing them), but not so OP for summoner classes and without rendering incarnate too weak

There's no need at all for any bonuses to non-summon-skill summons.

No need whatsoever. Not even 5% or anything. It'll still end the same.
Just remove that and you're golden.

Hope we see a balance patch for this (and other things) soon. The non-summoner conjurations are seriously overpowered and seem to gain unbalanced stats from even a few points in summoning. Bone widow in particular is arguably the best skill in the game right now (plant and slug cost a SP - but not enough to justify their damage output).

I'm starting to wonder if you could just solo the whole game with just the bone widow skill with a modded set up. Normal stats, don't take Lone wolf or Glass cannon but take Bigger and better, don't even pick up other companions - because I think 2 in Necro and 2 Summoner, start with bone widow, If I could mod it I would start my own solo run challenge.

I also hope this gets balanced. Another Example. Level 15 Scoundrel vs. Artillery Plant from Level 15 Summoner. When I cast with my quite well equipped scoundrel Mortal Blow with 3 (!!!) SP from Stealth on an Enemy I deal roughly 1000 dmg. The Artillery Plant from my Summoner needs 1 SP, can cast the acid spores twice during its "uptime" and deals (without consideration that the poison might even catch fire and deal extra dmg) roughly 300 dmg per projectile = 5x 300 = 1500 dmg.

If you would now also go as far as to compare "effectiveness" of source points invested then lets have a look:

1500 dmg x 2 (as you can use the acid spores two times durign the uptime of the plant) = 3000 dmg times 3 = 9000 dmg for 3 Scource points invested in a fight

Comparing that now to my scoundrel with the 3 SP ability (Mortal blow):
1000 dmg for 3 source points invested in a fight

This does not even take into account that acid spores can hit multiple targets and that the artillery plant also has normal attack that deals about 300-400 dmg per hit AND has another aoe spell.

Conclusion: serious balance issues!

i should stop reading this forum
so unbalanced game

seems like DoS: OS 2 EE is the only way

I remember Swen's words in the last dev update
"game is super polished"

Sadly they prove again and again, they have many ideas, but no real clue about usefull balancing.

your incarnate lasts 9 or 10 turns, bone widow lasts 5 and gets stunned/cc very easily. please stop with the nerf requests its silly. take your summons to tactician and play and be happy.

I'm going to throw my own two cents here to point some things out.

First of all, in terms of raw damage, Mortal Blow is probably the worst 3p source skill in the game. Even if your character is sneaking, it does less than 300% of your base attack damage. The point of it is to be able to kill anyone under 20% vitality, this lets it do a lot more 'damage' against high health enemies. It is not meant as a starting move.

Secondly, the complete lack of magic armor on the Bone Widow means that it can instantly be cced, and stay that way, possibly by accident. It can never walk through anything electrified, and some cc is much worse than just lose a turn. It is entirely possible to summon it, and have an enemy charm it for two turns.

Thridly, the Artillery Plant does poison damage, and only poison damage. This means that when fighting undead (spoilers, that's often) it is probably worse than useless as it can only heal the enemies.

It is true that they probably should get less of a buff from summoner, but it isn't like they are entirely broken. Although it does seem like the summons shouldn't be able to do as much damage as a character specialized in damage.

On the other side widow could be buffed with mag armor, cleared from CC,teleported to enemy and her amasing HP and dmg still in play

no metter CCd or cleared from CC - widow is broken


Flower with Poison DMG... ok but we have dmg converter like chains of pain - so u could hit ur Undead aly(my bad, u could hit only alive fat or buffed aly) to conver poison into phys

So Flower is broken too with that amasing dmg and amasing heal for ur undead
(or, if u wish, chains of pain dmg convertation os broken)

Shackling from your undead and poisoning him would not do any damage to anyone. Shackling from a living unit still requires dealing large amounts of damage to your own team. Honestly the only way you could do damage is if you use the Soul Mate combo, but that is a legitimate bug that will hopefully be patched out soon.

Using a magic armor spell on the Bone Widow is possible, but only if it is off cooldown and on the character who cast Bone Widow. It also doesn't get rid of all debuffs anyway, as the Widow could still be Mad or Charmed.

So yes, they should get rebalanced, but I really wouldn't even call them all that overpowered compared to other skills in the game.

The real thing everyone should know is that balancing is HARD. As someone working towards entering the industry, I've had to do some practice for balancing, and it is much harder than you would think.

I do hope the games balance gets improved though.

Its true. So easier to create game w/o balance.
But as for me, broken mechanic cant save even best book story, cos game is not a book.



u cant dispell that? an how our counter tactics solve the problem with widows huge amount of HP

I'm not saying it's fine for the game to be so unbalanced, I'm pointing out that all the 'easy' suggestions people have been saying to fix the balance issues are not that simple. It takes time, effort and a lot of playtesting to get the balance working.

I'm hoping (and expecting) them to work on improving the balance with patches, but it'll take time.

EDIT: Charmed and Mad can be cleared by Peace of Mind and Enrage, which are again a different set of abilities you would have to cast. And another set of abilities that might need to be changed to improve balance.

and again...its need more time but after release

dos 1 + dos 2
how many time do they have to create a perfect mechanic with the help of community?
seems like they dont spend time on that

Frankly, I doubt there ever will be the perfect balance because there pretty much never is. I would say it's better balanced than DoS1, but even games like League of Legends constantly have to improve balance, and that's been out for several years already. Almost a decade.

Balance of DoS2 is bad compared to DoS EE.
DoS1 main problem is with perma CC, perma stealths and some others that we have in DoS2 too
Additionaly DoS2 have lots of new mechanic issues
LoL didnt have same problems. And have new heroes every couple of weeks. Sure, they need some balance.

P.S Lets call it game mechanic not balance, cos the main problem with uninteresting, broken and builds-killing mechanic

or RKG (role-killing game)

In DoS1, I remember being able to basically just leave the rest of my team behind because my main (a mage) could clear the entire thing himself. Most fights ended after my first turn.

LoL is a different type of game, so of course it's problems aren't the same. However, it has had, and still has, many champions considered overpowered and drastic buffs or nerfs to many of them. A lot of the changes are to old items or champions, not just newer ones. It's an unending process.

EDIT: I'm not going to call it a mechanic because mechanics are just elements of gameplay and they don't have an inherent problem, the problem is how they work with, and compared to, the other mechanics.

In this case:
Having summoning boost all summons is a good idea in general as it allows for cross-skill builds. The problem is how powerful the summons are per tree and how much they get buffed by summoning.

Ofc. Redused CD. Cast CC or dmg -> Stealth -> repeat -> gg
Rogue, Warrior and Archer could do the same



Elements of gameplay like armor system, resists system, CC system, dmg system, builds variety, difficulty system, economy, quest system (doing y before x), attribute system, schools synergy system and all all all have a problems. So i cant understand what are u talking about. Sorry

Maybe after 25 years of gaming i want to much from the game of 2017... but no.

What I'm saying is that the mechanic of summoning creatures isn't a bad idea. Neither is having that summon get strengthened by another skill. The problem is how those summoned creatures are compared to other mechanics.

Basically, the problem isn't the mechanic itself, it's how the mechanic is balanced according to the other mechanics. That's why I'm calling it a balancing issue, not a mechanic.

Agreed.
"summoning balance" will be better
But we still have tons of problems with game mechanics

Well, this boss needs to have then more than 5000 HP (on level 15) to "deal" more dmg with the vitality aspect of mortal blow than with the "normal dmg" of the ability. Why? 20% of 5000 Hp is 1000 DMG. This is the amount of dmg you anyway deal with mortal blow at level 15. All bosses I fought so far at level 15 had between 3000 and 5000 HP max. If you then also would aim for the same dmg as the spores then you would need to have a boss with like 7500 HP at level 15 as 20% of 7500 is 1500. If you would aim to make it Source Point equal DMG to the acid spores then the bosses would need double or more HP. Again ignoring the fact that acid spores can hit multiple targets and can be used two times during the uptime of the plant. So the vitality aspect of mortal blow sucks as there might just be only "final bosses" that have lots of HP to make this ability worthwhile in comparison to the plant that at present just uses one SP and deals lots more dmg than that ability and can be used in various ways (even as cannon fodder because of the huge amount of HP).

Edit: And yes, the fact that summoning also buffs non-summoner-summons is broken as the "normal" acid spores of geomancers needs 2 SP and does considerably less dmg. I even would say that skill of the geomancer does the same dmg as mortal blow, so it is not so much about the skill "acid spores" itself but the buff the artillery plant receives from summoning which indrectly buffs the dmg of "acid spores". I am sure no geomancer would love the fact that a summoned creature does with its skill almost double damage than he can do with the same skill whereas the geomancer even needs to spend more SP.

overall, i think incarnate is much, much more useful. he can do all kinds of magical damage, can CC with a battering ram, has a ranged attack (unlike the widow), and has a lot of armor with infusions. widow's huge HP doesn't solve the armor problem, since she'll just spend all her lifetime incapacitated. she's still useful if you need a quick damage burst or a teleport though.
as a side note, summons don't just soak aggro anymore, since the AI will always ruthlessly target your most vulnerable character, and it will be the summon only if your PCs are really tanky or inaccessible (or if it's the widow, due to her low armor).
P.S. one useful trick is to enter fights with a pre-cast summon, this way you can re-cast it without a cooldown.

i asked this in another thread (in more detail) but what was the balancing decision behind making necromancy summons scale with summoning level instead of necro level?

increasing necromancy level doesn't make any of the necromancy spells more potent. it's only your character level + int + (interestingly) warfare for physical dmg spells. increasing necromancy only makes you heal more % when doing physical damage (perhaps because they wanted to make it different from the elemental damage schools)

that comes across as kind of shitty, limiting the kinds of characters that necromancy is useful for. there goes any hope i had of making a damage-oriented necro mage

I'm not sure anyone is saying game balance is easy, but I should only really speak for myself, and my problem is these are all valid criticisms that I echoed through alpha, beta and more recently, in another thread. To see the game released as-is, following a relatively balanced Divinity: Original Sin Enhanced Edition and leaving much of the same feedback beforehand is frustrating admittedly.

The problem is two-fold.

The first problem is the new armor system (which is actually where most of the balance issues throughout the entire game probably come from, but that's beyond the scope of this post and is probably beyond fixing at this point, short of some massive game overhaul; Divinity Original Sin 2 Enhanced Edition, in other words, but I digress).

Anyway, the new armor system significantly diminishes the value of crowd control and lowers your ability to maintain control over the battlefield. The easiest way to counter this then is to simply overpower enemies, and the best way to overpower enemies is to increase your available action points usable toward overall damage per round, so you can nuke individual enemies by focus firing them.

Now if we were to stop right here and call it a day, some people might think that's okay. Personally, I dislike this type of system greatly and much preferred how combat worked in the first game, but that's me.

However, your ability to maintain control isn't only dependent on your capability to deal damage and quickly remove enemy units from the battle. You also need to control your enemies' ability to deal damage to you, so you don't get blown up, since recovering is also much harder than in the last game.

So what is the best way to increase your overall damage output and mitigate overall incoming damage without CC? Summoning. This is the most effective way, by far, to increase your available action points usable toward damage and increase your overall survivability on the battlefield. By increasing the amount of attackable units on the field, you increase your overall health pool, lower your chances of receiving multiple negative status effects at once on any one unit, and increase your overall flexibility to deal with RNG.

For these reasons alone, Summoning is the best skill, but then throw in the scaling it provides per point, and it is game-breaking. Game-breaking as-in Ifan's Source wolf Ifrit can almost deal as much damage with its Bite attack for two action points as Sebille can with Flesh Sacrifice (which provides a damage boost) followed with Backlash (guaranteed critical hit), Throwing Knife (critical hit), Adrenaline Rush, Sawtooth Blade, and a normal backstab attack (critical hit) combined for a total cost of seven action points.

I realize this comparison seems "unfair" or some may argue it "gets better" later on when the massive stat inflation from gear kicks in, except that it doesn't. Ifan's wolf (or any summon, for that matter) is bonus damage. A truly fair comparison would be Sebille later on with massive stat inflation -versus- Ifan's wolf -plus- Ifan with massive stat inflation -combined-.

I dont know if we're playing the same game, because for me, the ennemy never never focus my summons. The only thing that damage them are Aoe or ennemy out of range from my other guys.
Maybe that's because i'm playing in tactician (yet a bit lowered by a mod coz it was insane for a 1st run).