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Rng is not a bad thing sure, but is it required in every game? No, why would you want divinity original sin 2 to be another xcom 2 or darkest dungeon? There is a key difference between divinity original sin 2 and xcom2. divinity original sin 2 have 4 man coop and xcom2/darkest dungeon is pure single player, so while save scumming is acceptable for xcom, it's simply tedious and annoying to do when you have a 4 man coop, you may say it's not "required" to savescum, but I think the game not encouraging it to begin with is a good solution. There are also other successful turn based games that simply avoid all factors of rng, for example, atlas reactor is one of them.

Last edited by sfzrx; 05/10/17 02:20 PM.
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It isn't good either. RNG needs to be built around. DOS2 is built around mitigation and counter play. Think of it like pseudorandom distribution, damage to armour is like your chance of hitting gradually building up. Healing armour is like reducing the percent chance of success.

The worst part of darkest dungeon is you either work the numbers and walk the game, or you go with the flow and get dumped on because rng favours the enemy.

DD favours high accuracy and high output over hoping low hit rate attacks work. It's a common issue with many rng oriented games. You just go for the good numbers and nothing else matters. RNG always favours the enemy in the long run as they get more roles and only need to win once. Eventually you're just hitting at 100% or building up to just 100% and strategy goes out the window.


gambling on some rng cc affect is not a deep strategic decision. It's just a sign of gambling addiction.
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The topic is magic is worse than physical, not magic is bad.

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Magic was stronger in the early access, and I believe it's still stronger with the added tools, it got nerfed in quite a few ways, (aero bonus change, ap cost change for a few spells, flesh sacrifice adrenaline no longer adds max ap, skin graft have 2 ap cost and source cost) but there are so many new spells to toy with, I'm gonna do a run of my own again and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Igniz13
You're comparing end game source required spell to a level 1 sorc cast rain and then attacking with a earth or lighting wand and thinking, "hmmmm there's some disparity here", but also ignoring the ease of access to mass aoe.


I was using Arrow Storm as an example because it's available around the same time as Meteor Shower, which is the most powerful elemental spell. Or at least Meteor Shower and Hail Storm are anyway. Prior to that, Rangers have Barrage and Ricochet, melee have Battering Ram, Battle Stomp and Whirlwind (although it's still almost always better to single target enemies down if they are at full health until very late game).

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Physical has the advantage of having double damage bonuses from a weapon skill and warfare, the primary physical skills also confer their own bonuses.but it can't do damage to people for just walking. It can't block los, heal armour efficiently, or just dump on people.


Mobility tax is mostly an issue with Warrior builds, not nearly as much with Scoundrels. Not only do Scoundrel builds naturally walk a bit more per AP, Backlash gets them to their first enemy pretty early and is probably the most effecient ability in the game since it's an 8m teleport by default (which can be improved with Far Man Out) that also happens to backstab for a single AP. The Pawn is also somewhat mandatory and does a lot for melee, where ranged get more use out of Executioner.

Rangers on the other hand have to Tactical Retreat at worst, and that's basically a free skill going into the next round. Scoundrel also has access to its own long range teleport earlier than Warfare (Warriors can detour into Scoundrel too) and eventually they'll both have Phoenix Dive and Cloak and Dagger.

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There's more tactics involved with magic for sure, but there's also more tactical possibilities. It's not as clear cut as just use physical. Your life is undeniably easier with magic as some people are weak to it and you don't need max rank source powers to do it.


There's more effort involved. Not tactics. There's a difference. I'm currently playing a four elemental team and it's a comparative slog, and it also requires more buffing and healing in general (and I'm wearing shields on all of them too).

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And why are you excluding summoners? They're part of the game they help a caster be a flexible contributer to any party.


Because Summoning is an outlier, and scales very oddly. I know how strong they can be, because I've played one all the way through now twice. In a split group they are ridiculous for versatility once you get elemental infusions (and it's also sad that the Incarnate does more damage with its own spells than what a player can at a similar skill level for a very long time, and for less Source too). In an all physical group they are kind of garbage aside from having a beefy distraction that can once per battle knock down an enemy or maybe finish off a half dead Mage with a ranged attack. In an all elemental group they become extremely powerful, but again the scaling is really odd.

They start out as all physical, unless you combine the books you need to get the basic Water, Fire, Poison and Electric buffs or summon them inside of an element (which isn't realiable). If you don't grab those books early, you basically play a physical damage dealer with an elemental character.

Even if you do get the infusions you need, they need around 5-7 points dumped before they can really contribute much of anything, and you need to double buff them on top of any potential infusion. You basically spend your entire first turn summoning and buffing your avatar that may or may not actually do 2-4 APs worth of actual damage during its first round.

The longer the fights last, the more efficient the Incarnate becomes (but then that says a lot about your killing effeciency too...). They finally become great once you hit Summoning 10 and beyond, and the 1-2 spells that they can cast up until maybe two-thirds of the way through Act 2 hit harder than what the player can, but of course they won't be casting as many spells overall. From there, player characters (and I'm talking those that are focused on dealing elemental damage too from the start, not some Summoning 10 then focusing on a single school type of caster either) start closing in and surpassing the elemental damage that a buffed Incarnate can do with the same spells. Finally.

The same issue happens with the physical version too, except quite a bit earlier. The physical version's damage varies wildly depending on how up to date your own physical damage dealers' gear is. If it's within 1-2 levels of the character level, the Incarnate's damage falls off once the player is around level 13 or so. Sometimes a bit earlier depending on vendor and drop luck. At end game the Incarnate is probably going to be the beefiest player on the field for physical and magical armor as well as health, but it's also most likely going to be the lowest damage too thanks to weapon scaling.

Of course there's also even more specialized summons like the Bone Widow (which hits like a truck, but is 100% CC bait), the Slug that lets you laser beam two or three times in a single encounter and the Artillery Plant, which has some insane first round burst against non undead, but they won't get as much use due to basically being a one tricky pony while the Incarnate has a utility belt. Plus, two of them always cost source, while the Incarnate doesn't have to for every summons.

Anyway, a group of four Summoners will be able to steamroll through the game almost as easy (in some encounters easier) as an all physical group. That says nothing about the personal damage or CC the caster is doing however as it's mostly the Summons doing all of the work. Eventually you'll also be able to max out a single elemental school to go along with your Summoning, but by that point the game is almost over anyway. Summoner focused builds make better buffers and healers than anything else for most of the game.

Last edited by Sanctuary; 05/10/17 06:50 PM.
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I think we can agree physical is more brain dead, but if you need to think more round per, you're being more tactical.

Summons can easily take advantage of available elements, surface creation is part of the caster package. It's clearly a flexible pick. I'd be hard pressed to run a caster team that didn't have the one physical guy, even if he was necromancy and summons. That has more to do with wanting the variety of damage types so I can exploit all the weaknesses, than specifically needing that guy.

I still say there's so many possibilities with magic that aren't worth giving up, as long as you don't dump all those expectations on one guy.


gambling on some rng cc affect is not a deep strategic decision. It's just a sign of gambling addiction.
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