Not to be too critical, but this would take away a lot from the game's themes to the point where it would just be silly and make the game worse. It seems to be a misunderstanding of Raphael as a character and his role in the plot.
I'm just reminded of the letter that Antie Ethel sends in the epilogue where she wanted to "climb you like a tree". Ethel romance when then?
I guess if they can write/suggest that in, why not Raphael I guess too now.
NO ONE IS SAFE FROM TAV's ROMANCE ARCS
I mean, people want to romance the creepy drider from act 2 - I 'm not surprised, if Auntie Ethel is next.
Let's just romance the "strange ox". He is an overall nice chap and he can polymorph into literally everything. (Plus he almost killed that dragon on the brain for me on his own - Lae'zel helped a little.) Though, considering he picked "ox" instead of "bull" that might indicate a lack of interest.
As for Raphael, having him as a warlock patron could spice up the story considerably in terms of incentive to give him the crown.
I would love to have Raphael more involved in my story, having a way to team up with him at the beginning of the game and do some missions for him throughout the story and even develop a romance with him!
It could be a new origin like we have Dark Urge, now it would be something like the devil pact.
I can see how the fling with him could be entertaining after seeing this video:
But then I remember watching the other one where Haarlep says he's not good in bed and we call Raphael out on it as a sick burn.
The man is too much in love with himself to romance anyone else, he sleeps with a copy of himself and even sings his own song during the battle with him. They would have to retcon him to make it work.
The existing romances need more polish, so if they ever decided to make this one a possibility I'd rather they first focused on enhancements of things that are already in the game.
I'd rather see money going to raises for these poor underpaid employees (as per Glassdoor reviews) than going to developing more sex scenes on every being, inanimate object, etc. lmao
If you're on PC, just get the sex mod on Nexus and just enjoy banging Raphael or get yourself a camera mod and enjoy yourself to some dickless Haarlep lol
Congratulations to Larian on ruining the RPG genre's perception and standards yet again after Bioware's damage has seemingly been repaired since their post-Inquisition demise...
This topic is quite complicated, but I'm going to try to give my most reasonable input as someone who has mixed feelings, because it would be great a romance with Raphael, however we must be realistic.
(WARNING: Long text)
Raphael, as the game clearly indicates in our faces, is a hardened narcissist thirsty for power. Of course, Astarion is similar in these respects. However, unlike the vampire, Raph is not bonded and doesn't relies on Tav/Durge's well-being to be happy. He sees the character as a means to an end through manipulations and honeyed words. And this is where many of us struggle to discern whether such compliments are merely of his nature or there really is genuine attraction behind it. Understandably, as predictable as the demons are, it remains a mystery to unravel their true feelings.
With some research and dialogue analysis, you can deduce that Raphael grows fond of your character "in his own way". Even Korilla, his closest associate, confirms that the devil can feel genuine appreciation as long as you don't tickle his fancy. Because... he doesn't really try to kill you at any point, unless you break in and rob his house. But Raphael is true to his words and doesn't seek your death if you don't get to that point (at least until he gets the crown).
However, attraction and love (whether traditional or toxic) are two things that don't inherently go hand in hand. A more realistic approach would be obsession and persuasion, a cat-and-mouse tug-of-war. True, there is Hope, but neither is it confirmed that Raphael was romantically interested in her. Obsession? Sadism? Certainly, but not a love that, although it could be justified by the human part of the fiend's nature, cannot be born from someone so self-centered. Just look at his house full of pictures and statues of himself, how his only object of comfort is a copy of himself and, as others mention, a damn song of him singing his victory. And let's not talk about his various epics of scenarios where he comes out on top. The game perfectly demonstrates that Raphael has love and romance as the last of his priorities, at least concerning others than himself.
HOWEVER.
What if Larian made a warlock subclass specifically as "Raphael's Warlock"?
It's a concept that has potential to be exploited without going ooc. Let me explain:
This could give us the opportunity to explore the patron/warlock relationship of the two more and in general get to know a closer and more intimate perspective of Raphael without ever triggering into a romance. Did the two know each other before or did Tav sell their soul in some of the encounters present in the game? That could be several options.
Also, it can be combined with a more detailed development, which has fallen short so far, around the Orpheus hammer deal. A new deal that involves Raphael more in the main plot as we asked for, and some personal mission as patron of the protagonist. Another contract maybe? Or some way to help him get the crown for the character's survival? Maybe the player prefers to be subservient or show rebellion? I don't want to dwell about this further, you get the picture. Not a romance no, but a non-love relationship development. Let's look at it as the relationship between Wyll and Mizora.
This proposal also gives more opportunity to expand the range of knowledge we have of the character. Because yes, Larian has left many things in the inkpot and he deserves justice (The relationship with the dwarf sisters, especially Hope, his past with Gortash, his relationship with Mephistopheles...) And above all the contract so dispensable for the main plot.
Raphael is a very interesting character and a brilliant villain following the Emperor. However, a romance could be his kryptonite and reduce him to a Halsin. So this proposal could avoid this fateful scenario if it comes to fruition.
That is... Getting invited to the House of Hope for the dinner he promised? That's completely necessary and many of us are looking forward to it, romance or no!
Thanks for taking time to read this. I'll gladly discuss this topic further for those interested
I don't want to go into discussions again, but a quick note about his obsession with Hope: When you enter the bodoir and ask Hope, if she was in there before,she says "Never by choice" - given,what the bodoir is mainly for,I take that as the worst possible meaning of her words.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Definitely many interesting things you throw in the room here.
I think that many who didn't participate in making the petition and who saw it later misinterpreted it as a list of demands rather than a collection of ideas and wishes from fans - what it was meant to be. Looking back, I would phrase this point more clearly.
I don't agree with the opinion raised here many times, that "a romance" would take from Raphael's arc or character, especially since we mean "romance" in the widest possible way.
He is narcissistic, he is obsessed with himself and with power, romance is not high up his list of priorities (probably not even sex), that's all true, and not a single one of us (as in: the group of people who put the petition together) wants to lose those aspects about him.
But if we analyze what's in the game already more closely, we are not that far from a "romance" with him without even changing much. He flirts constantly (I could list the lines, but I think that would lead too far at that point), we only want the chance to flirt back, he seems interested in the MC to say the least, there is the slightly hidden "He loves you, he loves you not" scene, the fact that he treats the MC mostly in honorable ways when he could use other methods to get that crown, the meeting in a brothel of all places, and many details more.
((Regarding Hope, no it's not clear if his obsession had a "romantic" (in the widest, most toxic sense) aspect to it, but additional text found in the game data hints at it even more strongly, but I think it's a given that what he does to her is sexually loaded "at least". In any way, Haarlep assumes "Raphael only loves Raphael" and it might be true or not. How well does this incubus sex toy know him? Maybe very well, or maybe not at all, it's open for interpretation and I like that it is.))
The options not to kill him after that battle and to let him go instead should be in the game already. And/or the chance to explore the house fully without betraying him/slaughtering any creature there and triggering his (well-deserved) rage and attack. The dinner is a must too after he promised it.
And aside from that? I don't think a kissing scene with him - should the MC be interested - would be OOC at all.
Yes, some think he's not capable of being attracted to anyone but himself. Others, however, interpret the fact that he's a cambion, not a full devil, as proof that he is capable of more human feelings. Personally, I think one of the most fascinating topics about him is this gap between his very human emotions and hobbies we see about him in the game and his devil aspects and what all of this must mean in devil society and how this struggle goes hand in hand with his (not so well) hidden insecurities. A growing interest (or even feelings?) for a mortal might add to the mix in interesting ways.
But, and that's important here, that's only my interpretation. A romance scene or a kiss or whatever would not come connected to a spelled-out reason why it happens. Maybe he wants to further manipulate the MC. Maybe he just went with the mood and a fling of attraction and wanted to see where it would lead. Maybe he actually struggles with some feelings. Maybe it's the MC kissing him and he is mostly surprised but fond enough of them (his words, not mine) to play along a bit. Who knows! It would be up to the player to decide.
Given that it is a request, I would assume that the list of contents should be taken as just that, requests. I think the formality of the text or the mere list format you presented (purely for the purpose of order) may have been interpreted as a demand, that's true.
As I mentioned, it is true that he has a certain preference for your character because of the factors I mentioned and you emphasised. However, we don't know to what extent he treats the rest of his clients and/or patrons. The game doesn't show if they also have a "special" treatment by the devil so the argument can easily fall apart if that were the case. OK yes, he treats Korilla well, if we want to rule out when he scorched her fingers, but beyond that we don't know anything about their relationship. That's why I urge an exploration of the relationship with the dwarves. As for Hope's line of dialogue.... We have to take it with a grain of salt, as her madness can play tricks on her (and consequently misinterpret). But of course, being crazy doesn't make or break a reason. It is a matter of interpretation of course, but there is no veracity in turn.
The subject of their relationship is shrouded in mystery and is rather confusing since its development began on the foundations of a version of Raphael that was later discarded to a less sexually aggressive one, but Larian decided for unknown reasons not to adapt it. So... Another thing to take with a grain of salt, it's cut content, and therefore no longer canon, important note. As for Haarlep... They themselves say they know Raphael as if they were Raphael himself, but they are a creature of demonic nature, so we don't know if their words harbour truth in them... What you say, free interpretation.
A kiss with Raphael can take away that essence that the players have loved about the character. The misterious aura and his unreachability to begin with... Something that can be hard to keep if Tav/Durge could step closer to him. As mentioned before on the forum: a good character, being well developed, doesn't need a "romance" (or something of a similar nature). I respect your point of view, but I don't share it unfortunately
As for his duality of nature, if we focus on the human side it is true that he can feel feelings that a devil purely speaking could not. However, there are thousands of emotions and they don't specifically have to involve love. Lust and passion are quite likely, but here his self-centred and selfish personality still clashes. Beyond himself it is difficult to discern Raphael being intimate...
On a final note, I don't deny that it's an attractive idea and worthy of exploration, free interpretation and one's imagination can work wonders and the concepts you share are great! But then again, the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same, wouldn't it?
That's why I urge an exploration of the relationship with the dwarves. As for Hope's line of dialogue.... We have to take it with a grain of salt, as her madness can play tricks on her (and consequently misinterpret). But of course, being crazy doesn't make or break a reason. It is a matter of interpretation of course, but there is no veracity in turn.
Hope has outbursts, but she is pretty accurate most of the time. Yes, she thinks, she is skinned at one point, but I'm pretty sure, that that was done to her and that she was kept ina state of not knowing, in what condition she is in. I agree with your first sentence. I really want to know more about the Hearthflame sisters. They are both so much more interesting, than a lot of otehr characters, that get a lot of space, I would not necessarily include Raphael here, since he is pretty well written, but most certainly Haarlep, who quite frankly is a waste of space - and that only to maybe get a cheap mic drop on Raphael. I really would love to see the story of the sisters a bit mroe fleshed out.
And as for the people calling for a Raphael romance: He probably isn't the strangest request around (coughsipderboychaough), but keep in mind, what the Halsin crowd is going through - be careful, what you wish for. I generally would be in favour of more content around the hells and Raphael and his father Mephistopheles, plus Zariel with Karlachs storyline, because that is a topic, I find interesting and haven't delved into much in all my time of playing DnD as a ttrpg. But characters tend to get worse, the more the focus goes to their romance, so I personally am not a fan. That doesn't mean, you can petion, of course - I mean we have at least fours threads and a lot of feedback on Larian DIscord about this stupid ascended Astarion kiss, so I don't see the problem here.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Hope is a rather strange character indeed. Thanks for clarifying her already rather confusing nature a bit more. In that case, "Love you, love you not" could be a foreshadowing of what might be on Raphael's mind? Does she see in your character a pattern she lived previously in her twisted situation?
Certainly, there is a lot of potential in them and they receive much less support and interest than other characters with a quite acceptable and complete development (Be an example Rolan or Zevlor), which is quite sad and an opportunity is being wasted. Also, given the circumstances she unveils in the epilogue, you can see that Hope has ended up very affected by everything and honestly, even if it's a "happy ending" that survives and remodels the House of Hope to its true purpose, I see it's a rather rushed development ending and one that can be improved. And yes, Harleep needs an overhaul in their development, and not limit it only to what the game shows. They are a POTENTIAL element to discover more about Mephistopheles and the relationship with his troubled son if you put it in perspective.
Heh, no way, not strange at all. Compared to what's being asked out there it's pretty coherent and not out of nowhere certainly. It's a tricky situation because yes: either it goes well and adds yet another layer of richness to the character or it goes more and we lose another pillar that carries the charm of the game.
Only time will tell and if Larian takes this request into their own hand. From what I've seen, Raphael's voice actor wouldn't mind dubbing lines for a content/romance of his character. Which is quite endearing to say the least.
Hope is a rather strange character indeed. Thanks for clarifying her already rather confusing nature a bit more. In that case, "Love you, love you not" could be a foreshadowing of what might be on Raphael's mind? Does she see in your character a pattern she lived previously in her twisted situation?
Certainly, there is a lot of potential in them and they receive much less support and interest than other characters with a quite acceptable and complete development (Be an example Rolan or Zevlor), which is quite sad and an opportunity is being wasted. Also, given the circumstances she unveils in the epilogue, you can see that Hope has ended up very affected by everything and honestly, even if it's a "happy ending" that survives and remodels the House of Hope to its true purpose, I see it's a rather rushed development ending and one that can be improved. And yes, Harleep needs an overhaul in their development, and not limit it only to what the game shows. They are a POTENTIAL element to discover more about Mephistopheles and the relationship with his troubled son if you put it in perspective.
Heh, no way, not strange at all. Compared to what's being asked out there it's pretty coherent and not out of nowhere certainly. It's a tricky situation because yes: either it goes well and adds yet another layer of richness to the character or it goes more and we lose another pillar that carries the charm of the game.
Only time will tell and if Larian takes this request into their own hand. From what I've seen, Raphael's voice actor wouldn't mind dubbing lines for a content/romance of his character. Which is quite endearing to say the least.
Yes, the sisters need more live to be honest,such an interesting story,so much wasted potential. And I do think, that Hope is sometimes foreshadowing Raphaels thoughts. Maybe because she hadn't much contact to other people apart from him or maybe she just was a prisoner there too long. I wonder, if she is a cleric of Selune too. She has the same outfit on as Isobel. Would have been interesting, if she had something to say to Selune Shadowheart or if freeing her could have been a mission given by Dame Aylin on behalf of her mother.
And I agree, that an overhauled Haarlep could be interesting. I think there might have been at one point more planned with Mephisto, hence, the crown was stolen from Cania ( which quite frankly is nearly impossible according to DnD lore), Cazadors ritual would have granted Mephisto 7000 souls, Raphael being Mephistos son and Haarlep being send by Mephisto to Raphael, maybe asa spy? Mephisto is the looming threat in the background and I was sure in our first playthrough, we would at one point had at least an encounter with him in some way. I was surprised, that nothing came out of it tbh. We can only hope for the definite edition.
Raphaels voice actor Andrew Wincott is really invested in that character. I do like his voice acting a lot andI just found out, that he has read Memory, Sorrow and Thorn from Tad Williams, one of my all-time favourite book series and I really want that audiobook now.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
