Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides The Turn-Based/Real Time with Pause topic

BG3 will be based on D&D 5e which is a very solid system with plenty of worth while builds.There are countless abilities and spells in D&D. Also we know for the most part that the tone of BG 3 is very different and the art is not cartoonish.

Except for the millions in sales of games like Skyrim and Inquisition and Witcher 3. Actually it is TB games like D:OS that are niche games. The true reason the D:OS games sold as well as they did is co-op and DM mode.

Yes I agree, so there is the potential for someone to make a really good D&D 5e RPG. The question is whether Larian's BG3 will be such a game, and that's where I have serious questions and a high level of skepticism.

Hopefully we will get a taste of BG 3 at Pax West and find that out

Best answer is this. Youll hate on larian and you hate turn based but you will still buy it. Yes you will buy and play it. I love how people always hate on a studio or game but they still buy it any way. So theres no reason to even bother debating anything because whatever they choose to do all the old gatekeepers will still buy it no matter what salt theyre are throwing.

Wotc owns the rights so theres not potential unless they deem it so. They didnt let obsidian or any of the other studios have it because they didnt like how they designed their games. So Mike and people like Nathan get the say so on that. Besides to many people complained about PoE anyway.

Turn based has had a renaissance.
RTWP tried the same but failed.

Action RPGs will always be the mainstream appeal however, hence why Dragon Age moved towards that.
i wouldnt be surprised if baldurs gate 3 will too.

The Market for Pure Action games is flooded, no need for another. Besides Larian Studios achievex it's greatest success with turn based games and Action is even less compatible with 5e then RTwP. There is at least an outside chance they figured out how to make RTwP work with 5e, there is zero chance of 5e working with Action.

Nobody has yet been able to explain to me exactly why RTwP would not work with D&D 5e rules. Everything that can be done with TB can equally be done with RTwP. Everything. The only meaningful difference between the two systems is that in RTwP the player decides when they want the game to pause and the action to stop, whereas in TB it is built into the game when the game will be paused. Every single thing in 5e rules, including initiative and reactions and counter-spellcasting, can just as easily be handled in RTwP as in TB. So the game being TB has nothing whatsoever to do with the faithful implementation of 5e rules. An honest fan of TB should at least own up to this. The true reason for going TB is entirely, 100%, because of co-op play and a possible DM mode.

I do prefer turn based, I don't think I've tried to hide that, but I'm being honest in that I don't think they can impliment 5e rules right with RTwP. I don't say that to convince Larian as the decision has already been made, I'm just giving my reasoning why I think it will be turn based.

Oh, absolutely. I also agree that none of these discussion have any value in terms of how the game is going to be, because Larian has (subjectively) made their choices and won't be changing any of it. But my point is simply that objectively speaking, RTwP can work just as well as TB, and TB v. RTwP is purely about people's personal, subjective preference. But I keep seeing posts where some (not all) fans of TB (and yes sometimes the other side as well) try to claim that objectively speaking TB is the more "appropriate" or "correct" choice, because the pnp system is TB blah blah, and that's what I end up pushing back against.

Bg3 is going to be a videogame and Larian already made their choice about the combat mechanics, and they are working on it.
Logically, It is going to be a videogame based in D&D 5e so no one expects that playing bg3 is going to be exactly like playing a D&D tabletop game with your friends because those are very different platforms. One will be a video game, the other is a social adventure simulation tabletop game.
And surely Larian´s goal is to make a good videogame, not a perfect simulation; and Sven Vincke already stated that some rules are going to be bend (because, as I said before, they are making a videogame and you have to adapt things, cut others; the same as in the videogame adaptation of VTMB 1&2: they will never use "mask of a thousand faces" for lots of practical reasons, for example).

But if someone will want to do the most faithful representation of a D&D 5e ruleset in a videogame will find it difficult to do it in real-time, even in real-time with pause, because of the nature of some of the mechanics of 5e. Anyone with a minimum experience in the tabletop will surely see some of the problems. There are plenty of reasons already stated in this thread so I do not think to repeat them is needed.

That is the question here, isn't it? Are they trying to "make a really good video game that can hold a candle to the original games", or are they trying to "recreate a tabletop experience that represents the D&D 5e ruleset as faithfully as possible"?

I bet among fans of the original games, many are pure video gamers who don't much care for how "faithfully" the games represent the tabletop rulesets, or "how many rules were bent" in the making of the games. So are they trying to satisfy these fans, or are they trying to satisfy the PnP crowd who may or may not even be fans of the original games to begin with? They can certainly try to achieve both, but then we know it's not possible to satisfy everyone.

I wonder if the devs ask themselves, "which crowd is our main target?". I wonder if they have a "prioritized" target group in mind. Or are they actually always like, "we're going to try to satisfy all sorts of fans". IMO this factor has a big impact on how they're shaping up the game.

Oh, no, Sven Vincke was pretty clear about that when he stated already that they are going to make a videogame first and not a perfect D&D simulator. He even gave hints about things are going to be included and not.
The thing about they don´t say anything specific is the combat.

Sven Vincke: "With respect to the combat system, this is based on D&D, so we’re using their combat system. We had to make a few tweaks, but we’re also trying to bring the stuff that you use in combat to overcome your foes, and which relates to how you imagine the fight to be, and how you imagine your characters doing things. We’re trying to make that possible within the game. So expect something that’s going to give you quite a lot of freedom when it comes to combat"

https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/larian-developer-interview


MM: "Our idea is that you can change things, even lore, as long as you show and don't tell why it might be changing"
https://www.rpgsite.net/interview/8...nd-partnership-with-wizards-of-the-coast

but they tweak some things to make D&D a videogame experience. What things? We do not know, but they give us some clues:

Swen Vincke how fully his studio is adapting D&D’s character progression, and he said:

“That’s actually been one of the things that we’ve been struggling with, because it’s a very slow leveling process in the books,” he says. As D&D players will know, gaining ten or 12 levels on the tabletop is a journey that could last weeks, but for a videogame, it’s “not a lot.”

Nevertheless, Larian is making a D&D game. Therefore: “We wanted to stick to it. So we’re figuring out ways of letting you still feel that you’re progressing in a meaningful manner, but in a videogame manner.”


https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/leveling-system

https://www.rpgsite.net/interview/8...nd-partnership-with-wizards-of-the-coast


We want to show the combat, not talk about it"
https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/baldurs-gate-3-erstes-gameplay-video-gamescom-kampfsystem,3345782.html



In this podcast, they also semi-confirmed the wish spell but also stated that some spells were banned. They use a three-color-coded list of spells. Green is good to go! like magic missile. Red is "never gonna happen". He didn´t enter into specifics but they said that is High-level stuff. Wish is accepted because it has a role in storytelling
https://kotaku.com/the-ranger-class-is-getting-some-changes-in-d-d-and-ba-1835659585



Misses from dice rolls. “The very obvious one would be that you tend to miss a lot when you roll the dice, which is fine when you’re playing on the tabletop, but it’s not so cool when you’re playing a video game,” Vincke said. “We had to have solutions for that.”
https://www.pcgamesn.com/baldurs-gate-3/leveling-system


One thing in particular is that they never make comparisons with previous games, nor make any references (When they asked about what ending of the baalspawn saga they will use they do not even remembered =P ), and they said repeatedly that the prelude of BG3 is based in D&D campaigns, not in the story of BG1&2. I think that their priorities do not seem to include particulars from the classic saga, sadly.

If BG3 ends up having turn-based combat please give us cinematic camera angles akin to the PS1-era Final Fantasy entries. It will make monster encounters seem less repetitive I'll bet.

Soon as that gameplay vid drops, we will have our answer.

To be honest, I'm not sure "soon" is listed as an entry in Larian's dictionary. I guess Descent into Avernus and the miniatures are part of the overall marketing effort but I feel that many fans of the series are not necessarily avid DnD players but primarily interested in the legacy of the Bhaalspawn saga and the Infinity Engine games. Perhaps the trailer was released too soon as I've thought of the post-announcement period mostly in terms of a dry spell since then.

There are TONS of these fans. Way more gamers who don't play D&D (who for years have never even heard of the tabletop game) vs gamers who play D&D. This is why the BG series was so popular to begin with. Simple math...

There are STILL way more fans who are gamers who didn't, don't currently, and will never play D&D, than gamers who play D&D. Way more.

And here's the thing Larian and even WOTC surely know... but are still hesitant to admit....

MANY of those fans probably WILL NOT BE BUYING BG3:
- if it's TB
- if it's overly muddled and SLOWED DOWN by an engine that tries too hard to incorporate elements from a tabletop experience that they NEVER CARED ABOUT
- if it's significantly out of "character" for a BG game.

That's the reality...

Clock's ticking on that gameplay vid.

Very succinctly put, Artagel. I hope they won't lose sight of the potentially sore lack of overlap between DnD aficionados and BG fans.

I am pretty sure that a great chunk of people started in D&D because of BG, the IE games and ToEE, NWN, etc.(And possibly they left when 4e XD)
And many more of D&D players know and love the games. I do not think it is grounds for yet another "brand new" community war in this thread.