Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides The Turn-Based/Real Time with Pause topic

I def like turn per turn

I agree, there are a lot more D&D fans now then BG 1&2 fans and even more so if one excludes BG fans that willing to except TB.

Swen Vincke himself has said repeatedly that some things in D&D don't translate well to a video game and as such those things should be changed. Well, the #1 D&D thing that doesn't translate well to a video game is TB combat. So, by Swen's own logic, it should be changed, because in a video game TB combat is mind-numbingly slow, boring, tedious, aggravating, un-fun crap. But of course it won't be changed because TB is what's "cool" with today's generation of mentally lazy people, and we will be getting a crappy TB combat game.

I'm not a fan of TB, but I suspect this line of reasoning will generate more heat than light; not least as it's pretty much exactly the same argument employed by fans of srs rpg* against the menace of Teh Casuals who are compromising video games' intellectual purity.

Edit: * the fraternity who are pretty much "TB or GTFO" I mean. Not that I'm an arbiter of anything, given that I reckon Oblivion is at least the equal of Morrowind (okay, with mods) and both are better than Skyrim; New Vegas isn't as good as people say; and that Andromeda is second only to Mass Effect in the overall series.

I would be cool if we can have more than 5 posts in a row making a reasoned case instead of ad-hominem arguments "Wut I like is da best and the others are retards/fanboys and the companies that do not do da games I like are shit"



In the interview, Swen already stated combat is not up for debate. Also said BG3 will only have 1 combat system but he didn't say which system.
: https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/baldurs-gate-3-erstes-gameplay-video-gamescom-kampfsystem,3345782.html
https://www.gamestar.de/artikel/baldurs-gate-3-preview-early-access-kamera,3345543.html

If we are talking business, here is the list of best-selling RPG games and RPG franchises of all time: 60% of the videogames with most players are turn-based, 70% of the most successful franchises are turn-based or had turn-based games at some point. Most of them still have titles in 2019. The three indisputable best-selling franchises of all time are mostly turn-based games.

https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Best_selling_RPG_games

I do not say that those games there are the "best RPG there is" and there is also many action and good RTwP videogames in the list, but we can say TB in videogames is a success. You can also cater to D&D fans but the TB games, in general, have a very large audience too. The sales figures of recent TB games (Persona, Fire Emblem, Dragon Quest, DoS2, etc) vs the low sales of RTwP games also confirms this tendency.

In the case of PoE2, they created the TB option because of the abysmal sales figures that this game had from the start, so they do not planned it first, indeed (A pity the sales of that game because that was one of the games in my top20 CRPG list, and I think it will be for a long time). Even Pathfinder kingmaker has a mod that turns the game into a TB game (IIRC in Owlcat games they had an intense debate prior to the launch of the game RTwP vs TB, more polite than here, I hope).

From my perspective, RTwP or TB depends on the type of game. If you are for a grinding game with respawning enemies when you have to fight the same enemies with different colors a hundred times, by all means, make it RTwP or it is going to be awfully everlasting! If there is a set number of tactical fights and scripted interactions I prefer TB because in RT you usually do not have time to find about it nor enjoy it.

The use of RTwP mechanic with D&D 2e, 3.5e or Pathfinder 1e gave us very great games, and they created masterpieces; VTMB have a very good game and another one in the making, and I think making a TB videogame of V:TM is a very bad idea, innecessary. The devs did not even consider it.
But IMHO D&D 5e have some mechanics that are simply not manageable in RT nor RTwP (reactions, help, delay, bonus actions, etc, etc, just find lots of examples in this thread) Even game developers like the ones of Solasta addressed that. And any player with a minimum knowledge of the tabletop knows about it. But I do not think Larian is going for a perfect adaptation, and even Miles Myers of WotC accepted that; they are open to change things.

I belive he was talking about specific spells or abilities like Wish. Something like that is just impossible in a game to give the same freedom as at the table. The Suggestion spell would be another example that will have to be restricted, hopefully you will at least be able to use Suggestion in conversations for premade options it provide.



I agree that 5e gameplay working in a smooth way might be difficult to implement. Having reactions go of asking if you wish to activate this and that will probobly be awful. Reducing perfect control for players by implementing automated triggers might be a way to solve it. For counterspell they could let players decide "use this if enemy casts 3;rd level or higher spell or a healing spell." as an example. I dont see any problem with bonus actions / free actions etc.

You mean Mike Mearls? I agree with just about all of this, although if there is any white wolf game with TB, I'd want it to be Chronicles of Darkness not World of Darkness as I like Chronicles of Darkness better, a game based on Changeling: The Lost or Geist: The Sin Eater would be awesome, perhaps darker then most audiences are used to as Changeling are all victims of abuse and hunted and all kinds of other nasty things, and Sin Eaters deal with the horrors of death and an uneotld that wants to eat you.

Ok, it was already discussed so I keep it short:
I do not think it is impossible but I think it is not manageable. First of all, one turn is usually 6 seconds. You have one action or ready action, one reaction, one bonus action per character and per turn. And I think you will have 4-5 characters in your control. that makes 5x3=15 actions in 6 seconds plus the enemies actions. You have to automate a lot if you want to make it manageable. And BG will be a MP game.
If you make reactions automatic they are not reactions anymore. I mean, It is ok if you make attacks of oportunity or counterspell automatic, they already made it in NWN, P:k, etc. But you only have one reaction per turn, and if they do not allow you to choose if you want to use it or not, or against whom you want to use it (maybe you want to block with your fighter or use cutting words with your bard against the bashing of the ogre, not against the goblin with the dagger. Maybe you want to protect your squishy caster instead of your full-armored fighter; or even do nothing at all. You cannot do it if the game makes automatic choices for you). Also, not all reactions are easy as counterspells or attacks of oportunity.
In RTwP you do not know the initiative order, so the tactical options of ready, delay or help do not make sense or are not even useful because of the turns last 6 seconds, even if they allow you to use them. You simply have the next action of the next turn to worry for, why care?.

Normally there are no problems with bonus actions like attack with the blade in your left hand because you do not have to decide anything in there, but In pathfinder and some other games, in my experience even if you use your bonus action to, for example, mark an enemy with your hunter or cast a quick spell you usually have to wait and make another pause in less than 6 seconds to do another action, because if not you lose the action in this turn(because you make a simple attack instead of using a skill, move, cast another spell, etc) and you have to wait to the next one. Make it five times, one for each character.
At least some core features like advantage/disadvantage or inspiration could be easily translated to either TB or RTwP.
And before you say anything, it will be a MP game, so forget about using "pause after cast a spell" or things like that because you are hampering the progress of the other members of the party. Let´s be realistic here. If you ever played BG2 in MP you know what I mean.


I know many people do not like to micromanage or do not care about most of these tactical features or some others, but there are people like me that do like them. I a game RTwP game, even more, MP RTwP, I am afraid that most of this fun features are going to be automatized, cut off or simply you nor the enemies are not going to use them due to time restraints.

I do not mean to say that BG3 must be a perfect representation of the tabletop game, because I already have the tabletop game to do that, even if that would be awesome. As I said before, I am ok with pathfinder or 2e, 3.5e videogames in RTwP, but IMHO do not think 5e is suited for TB because several tactical options and fun features are going to be watered down, and the devs of Solasta agreed with that vision, and they know better because they are already making a videogame out of it.

I meant that reactions can have a system like FF12's Gamibits kinda. So you would get to create triggers that your characters react to. As for cutting words you could take "always ask" if you wish to use it, or you might want to have "ask to use if *insert characters* is targeted" in order to aviod using it on tanks. Or if you wish to have quicker gameplay "use if *insert characters* is targeted" . It will be intresting to see what larian has come up with.

Oh, something like the trigger effects of the IA in POE and DAO. It´s not perfect but that could work

You guys are missing my basic point, which is that there is no objective gameplay reason for BG3 to be TB. And yes, all the posts above only strengthen my point. It is entirely a subjective preference. It is a subjective preference for players, and it is also a subjective preference for Larian, though of course they will spin it as having been an objective decision. Outside of gameplay reasons there is certainly an objective reason for Larian to choose TB: purely the reason of making more money off the game.

Am I making this point in a provocative way? Sure. But that's only because I am really tired of the many, many posts here and elsewhere proclaiming that TB is the one true way for combat in an RPG, the "best", the "most appropriate", the "most authentic", blah blah blah, and everyone needs to just accept this truth.

Well, it's not objective truth in any way. RTwP is fun for me whereas TB is utterly boring. In TB combat, one might as well just have the AI run the combat. What would be the difference? The player's input is not even really needed in TB. The AI can just apply "the rules" in a perfect and optimal way. TB does not give players more choice. Exactly the opposite: it takes away player control, and the game tells the player exactly when to do what things, and if you follow the perfect script for your actions then the battle will work out perfectly for you. Heck, for many TB games, for their more "difficult" battles, there are even websites out there that will tell you exactly what you should do with each of your characters in each turn, turn by turn, in order to perfectly beat the battle.

For me, a game is not a true RPG if the combat is not chaotic and confusing and sub-optimal in terms of the decisions you make in the battle. That's how roleplaying works, and that is what is fun.

I made a search for the terms <"TB is the one true way for combat in an RPG, the "best", the "most appropriate", the "most authentic"> in this thread and your post was the one and only result every time, but whatever floats your boat, pal.

You have to excuse me, but when you say "just have the Ai run the combat", ¿are you really say it is a pro for RTWP vs TB? Because in every game I played in RTwP besides BG2&IWD2 I killed all the random encounters and trash mobs with the ia in auto-combat and making a coffee or chatting in wattsapp. Be P:K, BG, POE, Tyranny, DAO, Divinity classics... You only need to take control vs minibosses, bosses and some difficult encounters. Ah, BG2 and V:TM redemption, because the IA was so awful that used all the blood at once and make all the party go blood frenzy. Good times.
If you want to sell RTwP, just say "more dynamic combat" "requires split-in-time decisions", etc, etc, but do not try to pitch that the player input is not required because you are going to lose in every comparison.

And you really need to tell me what TB games you play, because the only games I know that use IA are JRPG. And it usually is not a very good one. The IA in Fire emblem games, Tactics ogre, FF tactics, etc is not very good. Even if you want to use it, you usually control what unit you want to level up, so it requires micromanagement. And your frontline fighters tend to charge blindlessly and let themselves be surrounded and killed.

I do not think in Dragon quest or Lunar silver star, bravely second or Sword or shin megami tensei or legend of heroes, grandia, Final fantasy VI-X.... the Ia is particularly good. At least I do not use it.

The dungeon crawlers, like Etrian Oddysey, Infinite adventures, Operencia, elminage gothic, etc have an autoattack option too, but you end up dead in a few fights unless you are fighting very inferior mobs.

The western TB games I know, from Underrrail to fallout 1-2, Arcanum, Battle Chasers: Nightwar, all the King´s bounty, Warhammer:Mordheim, Age of decadence, Torment, This is the police 1&2, All the Demon rise games, Dead age, Dead state, Dungeon Rats, Azure saga, forged of blood, knights of the chalice, Divinity OS 1&2, Eien no Aselia, Anachronox, Regalia, Xcom 1&2, Mutant Y0, Hard west, Labyrinth of refrain, TOEE, POR, ... Do not even have a proper IA.

Perhaps the combat system will be in the vein of this game?
http://www.vgchartz.com/game/73124/final-fantasy-xv/
Seems to have sold just fine. On another note, I'm not sure that Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire's poor sales have anything to do with RTwP combat. I beat the first game and felt it was pretty lackluster so I stayed well away from the sequel. It was a cute homage to Baldur's Gate but when judged on its own merits it fell rather flat because the setting didn't prove compelling enough for me. The characters, the world, the lore, I mean everything was by and large forgettable.

No one cares about sales figures from ancient franchises. Claiming that Turn-based RPGs are the best selling RPGs is simply wrong FF hasn't been turn-based since the early nineties. If Larian cares only about the money they have to make an open-world Action RPG aka TES clone those games sold tens of millions of copies, only the Pokemon games sold better in the last 2 generations and Pokemon is something else entirely.

"Heres evidence that 5E doesnt work in real time"
"All of the above strenghtens my point that there is no evidence that 5E works in real time".

Well, i guess we can conclude that this isnt going anywhere

I never said people used those exact words. Those words were my words, my characterization of what many on the pro-TB side were saying or implying. But whatever. Seems like you are bent on misrepresenting my points and then making straw man claims against me.


I completely agree with this, and have pointed this out myself before. If the argument is that Larian will want to design the game to maximize sales, then making the game very similar to games like Skyrim/Witcher 3/DA3 would be the way to go - all RT(wP) games. Using TB is not about what works best in an RPG or what works best for D&D or even what will sell more. Those are specious arguments. TB is Larian's personal, subjective preference. And it is the personal, subjective preference of the fans of Larian's recent games. All the justifications that are being tossed about for why the game should be TB are just complete BS. If someone says they're glad the game is going to be TB because that is their personal preference, I respect that and am fine with that. Everyone is entitled to their personal preferences. But don't try to tell me TB is how it should be.

Exactly right. There are several reasons why PoE2 did not sell that well (and noting that it actually sold ok; just not "great" as defined by D:OS2 sales numbers). The game being RTwP was NOT one of those reasons. Claiming that adding TB mode boosted sales hugely is a complete fallacy. TB mode only increased sales marginally, and even that is a loaded claim because TB mode came at about the same time as the game's release on consoles, and as such the additional sales could just as easily have been driven by console sales.

I personally found the game's setting and lore and characters to be awesome (and conversely the setting, lore and characters of the D:OS games to be weak and boring). But for others, you @korotama being a good example, it was the other way around. Purely personal preference. That's just how things are. And if BG3 sells hugely, it will have ZERO to do with TB combat and rather because D&D and the Forgotten Realms are hugely popular.

Oh, I should have pointed out I played Pillars of Eternity prior to beating the Bhaalspawn saga. It only falls flat in hindsight because after completing BG I began holding virtually every RPG to its standards. Narrative-wise most games (including role-playing ones) seem weak and feel like a downgrade from BG to me. My gaming habits were fundamentally changed at that point (quit gaming for all intents and purposes, these days I only replay BG and fiddle around with the old Infinity Engine stuff). Okay, I may be exaggerating. I'm playing FFVIII:Cash Grab Edition right now for a stroll down nostalgia/memory lane.

Sadly the BG saga and Planescape Torment "ruined" every other RPG´s story in existence for most of us... there are not many titles that resist the comparison.


If we follow your logic they should make a Pokemon: Sword coast conversion instead of a D&D simulator, because Pokemon games have more sales than TES by far (Please NO).

I think you forgot conveniently the third best-selling franchise, Dragon quest, 76 millions worldwide ( doubles the witchers sales, 26 million more than Elder scrolls games). Dragon Quest XI, launched in 2019 sold 4 million copies worlwide, and they are still TB games. And let us talk about Shin megami tensei, Persona, Octopath traveler, Ni no kuni, The "Tales of" series etc... All games from no more than 2 years ago, all TB games and all with over a million sales. even DOS games in their niche had respetable sales.
https://twinfinite.net/2018/11/heres-how-dragon-quest-xi-sales-rank-vs-other-popular-jrpgs-this-gen/
https://vgsales.fandom.com/wiki/Best_selling_RPG_games

No matter the prejudices or personal tastes, when you start crunching numbers you can see that no matter what you think or say, TB is a thing. Numbers do not lie.
Action and TB existed since almost the beginning of the history of videogames, and both will be here for a long time, because there are plenty of people that like them.

I wish my old system could run Dragon Quest XI. It looks like a great little romp. As stated a few pages back, I could bear with turn-based combat if the camera shots were as dynamic and diverse as this: https://youtu.be/-7FyEJQJUVA?t=53