Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Is it gonna evolve more towards Baldur's Gate ?

Let me start by saying that I am a huge fan of Baldur's Gate I and II; BG2 is one of the very few games that I have completed more than 3 times. I also loved the two Divinity:OS, which definitely do justice to the genre.
So, naturally, when BG3 was announced to be developped by Larian, I was super super hyped; it's the only thing I talked about in the office the whole week; "BG3 is coming, it's finally happening". Now that I had a close look at the gameplay demo yesterday, I'm like "mmmh..is it though ?".

Take a thousand people that have played BG & DOS, show them these 20 minutes of gameplay, then ask them to guess the title of the game. I honestly think 95% of them will answer DOS3. And it should be a big tell that something is not quite right somewhere.


Here is the list of reasons why I personnaly see DOS3, from minor to major issues (you probably know what's coming, so feel free to jump right to the final question):

- The engine is the same; I'm a developer myself, so I know one of the golden rule is "do not rewrite the wheel"; and if the time saved by reusing the same engine is put elsewhere, I think it's a good idea; all the "moving objects around", the verticality, etc felt great in DOS, so why not.

- The interface is the same; the icons, the menus, the bar at the bottom (messier than ever), the green action point (which does not apply well to D&D5), etc. I'm not too concerned about that, because UI can be changed quickly, and I'm sure it will. Again : why not.

- The party of 4; you probably noticed when Swen opened the new group inventory that the screen was divided in four parts, so I think it's safe to assume that there will be 4 members in the party and that it is planned to stay that way. It's not a major change, but it's one of these things where Larian asked themselves "Do we do this DOS style or BG style ?" and where they chose DOS. But, ok, let's be open minded : it's true that in BG you always had 1 or 2 companions that you liked less and used only during tough battles. So, again : why not.

- The turn based combat; combat systems in BG and DOS are both very good and enjoyable; but they are really different from the other, so you cannot really merge them into one new system. I secretly hoped that you would be able to switch between the 2 somehow, but you can't; it's turn based. Larian had to choose again "Do we do this DOS style or BG style ?", and again, they chose DOS. And this is not one of these minor changes in gameplay (that you expect from a new opus), this really changes the way the game feels. Now, I know what you want to say, go on, say it ... "but D&D5 is turn based, right ?" ... First, D&D2 was turn-based too, yet BG was live and everyone loved it. Then, D&D didn't really choose the turn-based aproach : it's a table-top game where ONE person (with one mouth and one set of ears) has to describe and listen to a battlefield of 10 people, so turn-based combat is the only thing that is manageable. A video game don't have this problem, it can make all these things happen live in a clear way. Now, let's pretend this is the only item of the list, and let's be open minded again; on its own, it's not a game breaking change, it's a very bold and risky change.

- The atmosphere; above all the rest, above the turn-based combats, this is my main concern. Baldur's Gate has a dark world, it feels serious and mature, there are human beings trapped in jars, people get disintegrated, there are whores and beggars in the streets, combats are brutal (when your warrior takes a sword hit, the animation and the sound are simple but you kinda feel it), caves and dungeons can be oppressing. DOS has this cartoonish, colourful and joyful ambience that makes you feel you're gonna have a good day even when you are in a crypt; everything and everyone is clean, you have this little "BANG" visual animation when you hit someone with an arrow, every tomb (like in the preview) has a poetic light coming from the ceiling somewhere, people (Astarion) thinking out loud about the fact that they have a living-growing-thing in them are not particularly panicked, etc. Everything is so positive; and this is DOS' atmosphere, which is the opposite of BG's. You got it right in the 2 cinematics, I thought, but I don't see it at all in the actual game. This is worrysome, because art direction and writing is not something you can easily change in the middle of the process.


All these items, especially the last 2, make me feel like I'm watching "DOS3: a tribute to D&D"; and don't get me wrong, I would buy that game and enjoy it very much. Just like I would buy and enjoy a BG3 that's true to the BG saga. But if I buy DOS3 branded as BG3, I will feel betrayed.

So my questions are simple : do you guys agree and are aware that this early version of the game is 90% DOS and 10% BG ? Is it just because we are early in the dev, you started of with the ressources you had from DOS (which is legitimate), and over time it will deviate from DOS' world and atmosphere towards BG's ? How do you plan to do that ?

I know you all work hard, and I don't want to sound mean. I'm just a scared fan; and Fear leads to ang...oops, so many franchises, I'm lost.

Best of luck for the months to come.

Cheers.

You're not alone in your assessment. I don't know what will happen next, you'll have to wait for more trailers and demo events.

Thing is, this version is barebones in terms of plot and lots in terms of gameplay - and being on the DOS2 engine, it's obvious it's gonna be mostly showcasing combat.

I agree with everything you've observed. I'm confident that things like UI and Story is going to change and adapt to feel a lot more like D&D and Baldur's Gate, than DOS.
For party size, at least classical D&D always had groups of 4-6 players, and the more players, the harder it is to balance without swinging on both ends of the curve (either the party being super weak or extremely strong). If we can get 5 Players, i'm happy, but I won't cry out if it's only 4. I don't need 6.
I fully support the sentiment that I want to feel BG3 more grounded. Jumping, shoving, attacking shouldn't feel and sound like magical effects and be more gritty and realistic, to aid as a contrast to the magic users in the party that fling their magic missiles and Witchbolts.
I really hope they take a second look on attack animations and sound effects.

I'm confident in the story-department, but since it's coupled with voice-acting i'm worried about how feasable making changes after getting feedback will be.

I completely agree with your assessment and i'm the same boat , i'll still buy the game and play it , but either rebrand it as Original Sin 3 , or just make it feel more like BG...anyway, it's alpha stage , there are still a lot of moving pieces , i'm pretty sure that a gaming company like Larian and their games became this loved because they DO listen to their fans , so just hope they will find a good middle ground to satisfy both the Original sin turn based crowd , and the old school real time with pause of the BG/Icewind dale series crowd...also please be sure to include pre fight buffing , i loved the preparations in the old games , and in Origianl Sin, you can't prebuff :P not even preconsumable:D

For me it would be enough to simply drop the '3' in the title and call it something like "Baldur's Gate: Inspiring Title".

I do have the same concerns, and that the narrative will succumb to Larian's unyielding tongue-in-cheek narrative style, but all in all I do think I will be buying this. A fun D&D game is still a fun D&D game, and there hasn't been a good one since Neverwinter Nights 2 (granted that's solely based on my own preferences, not fact).

Drop the '3' and most (if not all) of those concerns go away (again, for me). That '3' implicitly and inherently implies a strong connection to what came before, which thus far...is mightily not the case regarding combat, visual style, narrative style or characters (knowing that this is ENTIRELY subject to my own interpretation and is by no means factual...though I do not think I'm unique in this view).

man i was gonna agree with your post and then came the "cartoony" thing again.

At this point im convinced someone pays people to post this.
What about this entire thing made you go "cartoon"?
Seriously what?

The clsoest would actually be the moving objects around.

And plaese, PLEASE stop this nonsesne with "effects when you hit someone is bad" stuff.
no.
Western games suffer greatly from not knowing how to make melee combat feel good.
For Honor and Vermintide are starting to get the hang of stuff games like Dark Souls and Dragons Dogma have known for ages.

No, floaty feeling, low impact combat is not disreable

If you want that Baldur's Gate feel, then you will probably have to play the new Pathfinder CRPGs or Black Geyser. BG3 will obviously be a straight up sequel to D:OS 2, just with a different setting.

You hit the nail on the head. I have played and loved both games. And as you mentioned I would say this is DOS3, not BG3. DOS3 would be great, but so would a BG3 which is what I was hoping for since they are calling it BG3

No, you probably wont like the new Pathfinder game.

Its innovative, its got new ideas.
Its not about muh bhaalspawn and it doesnt have a drow waifu.

If you dislike BG3, chances are youll dislike WotR too, because it isnt BG2, it wont ever be.

youll probably like Black Geysir because that game is never coming out so you can project your impotent hopes on it.

I'm not sure we can tell tone and seriousness at this time from this demo.

I actually have quite a bit of faith in Larian in terms of adjusting to feedback, they are pretty good at that from past experiences. So right now they are getting all of what you said from the demo all over the internets and then we have beta to. The only thing that struck me as lazy was the UI, I do expect that to change a lot, perhaps the demo/timeframe made them use a ton of DOS assets.

I do love the 3rd party view, it really adds to immersion, I would love to see driving controls added WASD mlook, that would really suck me in.

I would even say RtwP isn't completely out of the question, they could be holding that close to the vest or if overwhelming demand happens. Larian is like that imo.

So funny that RtwP was created out of desperation and time when Bioware cancelled an RTS and those assets went into BG1.

[quote=Abazigal]

- The atmosphere; above all the rest, above the turn-based combats, this is my main concern. Baldur's Gate has a dark world, it feels serious and mature, there are human beings trapped in jars, people get disintegrated, there are whores and beggars in the streets, combats are brutal (when your warrior takes a sword hit, the animation and the sound are simple but you kinda feel it), caves and dungeons can be oppressing. DOS has this cartoonish, colourful and joyful ambience that makes you feel you're gonna have a good day even when you are in a crypt; everything and everyone is clean, you have this little "BANG" visual animation when you hit someone with an arrow, every tomb (like in the preview) has a poetic light coming from the ceiling somewhere, people (Astarion) thinking out loud about the fact that they have a living-growing-thing in them are not particularly panicked, etc. Everything is so positive; and this is DOS' atmosphere, which is the opposite of BG's.


I couldn't agree more. The light-hearted 'i have a tadpole in my head' and attempt at comedic relief has a potential to undermine the narrative. They should also consciously step away from the cartoonish jump and 'hit/dmg' animations we saw in the reveal. It's difficult to make a game grittier and dark without also making it dreary and bland but I'm sure they can find a nice balance.

what the hell?
i have a tadpole in myhead? lighthearted?

Did you see the cinematic trailer? How is "a toothed slimy alien worm is forcefully pushed into your eye and is startint to devour your brain" lighthearted?
You have to be joking

I wholeheartedly disagree. The reason why you see the same criticism over and over is because there is a legitimate preference issue. I also dont want my combat to be highly stylized with flashy animations and lightning effects. Its one of the reasons why I never even consider JRPGs, one look at the trailer and I know the game isnt for me.

So I hate to break it to you, but you will have to accept that this critique will last until the world ends.

I haven't really played the original Baldur's Gate games much as I'm personally not a fan of RTwP gameplay. It tends to get too messy for me.

I do kind of agree with your statement regarding aesthetics, though. The world looks like DOS and the world in DOS is very bright, colourful and cheery. I don't think this will change based on what we've seen so far. I'd definitely prefer something a bit less "fantastic" looking.

Here... Please Read my post. I think we can relate a bit here.
Scared, same... Among other things...

http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=659445#Post659445