Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides The Turn-Based/Real Time with Pause topic

I personally want RTwP, but ONLY if they also include a number of things such as:

Extensive AI for your own PC as well as each of your companions. I am talking like IWD2's level of extensive AI, where each class has like 10 different AI options. I don't consider PoE's AI options to be anywhere near extensive enough (they had like 3 different AI options each).

An extensive customizable pause setting that lets you choose what pauses the game. Including options like pause when critically hit, pause on player's turn, pause on enemies turn, pause when enemy bloodied (reduced to half health), pause when player ally blooded, pause on combat start, etc.

Without these things included, it makes playing RTwP frustrating as I don't want to HAVE to dictate the actions of any particular character, but my own.

Yeah, sadly the more I look at what they said and what they shown the more I see the disconnect. I was actually hyped when they announced it, because Larian I knew wasn't afraid to experiment and push the envelope. Larian I see here is too afraid to let go of DOS formula.

Well at least now finally the Larian fanboys can't hide behind the lame argument that we don't know anything about the game so it can't be criticized.

No surprises for me. I was expecting a crappy game, and that's what I saw in the demo. This is just D:OS pretending to be D&D. And the claim that they have "improved" the TB combat system is the most pathetic line of all. This TB system is worse than ever. Just watching that demo of the fight against the devourers was mind-numbingly painful. I can't imagine actually playing through that shit. But the good news maybe that at least now D:OS gets to be only the second shittiest game in this genre, because at least D:OS is not a fake like this so-called BG game.

Oh no... Don't do that...

Haha sry bro, i read a quote as your comment at all ^^

All good ;-))

And im happy im not the only one, who loves RTWP and dislikes tb combat

Dude, I had thought about messaging you and maybe getting you to record you reaction to the gameplay reveal.

I kinna wish I had remembered to now. Dammit.

Chris Tapsell: Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 had "real-time with pause" combat, you've gone turn-based.
David Walgrave: It's 2020! ... Normally we try out a lot before we make a decision, but with real-time with pause and turn-based we didn't, we just said "Okay it's just gonna be turn-based."
David Walgrave: Look, it's glorious 3D. It has really nice cinematics ... So to me it's a good sequel.

So "Divinity Original Sin 3" is now should be pronounced "Baldur's Gate 3". Well, OK.

Oh boy, another good game series get to the dead end of "modernising". After Elder Scrolls, Gothic, Neverwinter, HoMM, Disciples, Dawn of War, Medal of Honor, Civilization, Stronghold, Command & Conquer and many more. Yes, yes, you will say that some of them are very popular now in that new dresses and makeups and I will agree. I just old and I remember them, when they were younger, cleverer and more interesting to be with, somehow.

I don't even want to get into polemics about UI, half empty bottom bar, this useless top plate "In Combat" with red outline, as if I don't have eyes and don't understand that it is a combat, not a dialogue. That minimap with coordinates; local elves are not even in a glimpse of discovery of how to build a skateboard and yet somehow have fully assisted GPS with tracking.

The future advertisements (and today impressionable journalists) will say that all changes are for the best, and Larian moving old outdated genre to a whole new level... Of what? They only write this because they need something clever to write. If something is presented properly, overloadness with details becomes variability, something that peoples never need becomes the only thing to have, and part of the series that makes it great becomes an obsolete part we need to get rid of (and replace with whatever we have now in our pocket, yeah).

I won't buy Baldur's Gate 3 not because it is bad game. No, it is potentially very good and interesting RPG. I won't buy it because it is just too different from the old Infinity-engine masterpiece that I'm sure many players here love very much. I just don't need another "Original Sin". I have played two already.

Imagine, that Starcraft III will get combat mechanics from Heroes of Might and Magic III. Or DOOM 6 is out with vast dialogues and gentle look to the internal feminine personality of the main character. It will be a weird future. No reasonable continuity of the established line, no care about decades of heritage.

Artists and story-makers surely paying attention to those important things. But producers don't. "It is easier to make game turn-based because we already have a large part of the code from other game? Oh good, we will use it, then". They don't need to care about heritage, they just in a business of making money out of peoples, who waisting their time playing virtual toys.

Yesterday is was fashionable to have RTwP, today public prefers Turn-Based. It is irrelevant that you, yes - you prefers RTwP combat. Opinion of a person don't matter. They operate with bigger numbers, percentages, masses of peoples. It is not because they hate you - they simply don't need to care, what individuals write in this small corner of the Internet.

It is perfectably understandable, that the studio constantly searching different ways to minimize production costs. They have found one. Now they will convince people through repeated advertising that "this product" is exactly as the old one, except that company make it even better. Larian is not unique in this - pretty much everybody else doing it the same way.

Bigger crowd, bigger sales. It's not personal, Sonny...

AFTER THOUGHTS: If Larian want to create a new RPG based on improved technology they have from the previous project, and they planning to make it so radically different from "Baldur's Gate" series, that even classic combat system has been labeled as "obsolete" and already has been thrown out, why bother with old obsolete name as well? New game for the new year must have a new name. I propose the following: "D&D: Origins"; "Funky Elves - A Graphics Tale"; "Pool of Randomness" or my personal favorite "Tales of The Fans's Loss".

Well right up to the end I kept a tiny little bit of hope alive that Larian would surprise me with something I could consider to be good. But now it is clear there is nothing, literally nothing, about this game that can redeem it for me. And that is very sad for me as a passionate fan of both the original BG games as well as the Forgotten Realms setting. I mean, if everything else about the game was awesome and the TB combat was the only negative, that would've been a different story. But here everything is trash. I mean, if you find a person who is unfamiliar with both the D:OS games and the original BG games/FR setting, and had them play a bit of D:OS1/2 and this game, they will surely say the games are the same. It is indisputable that this game is exactly the same as D:OS but with some kinda'-sorta' application of D&D 5e rules.

Bottom line, my reaction was actually quite anti-climactic. No freakout or anything like that. Just a profound sadness that I will be denied the ability to play a game called Baldur's Gate 3, something I've been so waiting for for 20 years.

I know that BG has not been TB however I think that this is not what made it a BG game. I have said and I will always say that BG is about the story. To me this has always been what brought me back so many times to replay the game. Each time finding new ways to play and exploring how different parties and actions effect the story. One of the key features of D&D is the ability to tell a story with your friends. In my experience I found it very difficult to play BG1 and BG2 with my friends. I think that this was one of the major flaws of the BG series. A typical attempt would end up in people wandering off around the map, starting combat and dying before anyone could get to them.

I understand that multiplayer in BG could be very effective with the right players. However I have run into constant issues of people not being ready or casting there spells on the wrong person. I think that having TB combat will change the way that we can play this game by enabling awesome multiplayer moments. which, in my opinion is what D&D is all about.

QFT. All those games with RTwP would actually be much better if it's turn based or just plain real time.

I tried so hard, too hard to make Poe2 and Kingmaker play great in realtime, the scripting to me was just broken though (I will surrender that perhaps if I were smarter and put in 100 hours maybe I could get there). To me it is stupid for everyone to have all these skills and they will only use them reliably when you pause and tell them to and hope that fires because your pausing in-turn, that imo completely borks realtime for me, faux TB. The one part of Real time argument I get is, you don't have lengthy battles and can quickly move through, and that is why I'm so much for good scripting AI, so when you play your guy I don't have to baby sit the others and have very good results from them, not basic attack, basic attack and just a little more than that. It's maddening, in the iso world I don't think Real Time has ever played out well, fast perhaps, but not well per move.

Certainly no one was clamoring for turn based combat during the Infinity Engine era. Baldur's Gate 1 as a game was so amazing at the time for many reasons, but RTwP was one of the big innovations. Who would have wanted to go back to turn based when we finally got to see our characters fighting? No one said, oh my God this is so chaotic, I just can't take it. That's why you pause when you need to, and issue new commands when necessary. If you don't like pause and want pure real time combat, no one is forcing you to pause either. I also assume that, programming-wise, they could add turn based combat into an RTwP game as an option. It would turn on this restrictive overlay with squares that makes characters step back and forth one at a time. You could even incorporate the turn based code into a spell, Mordenkainen's Turn Based Time Wasting, that prevents characters from doing anything other than a PE class jog in place.

5e has a lot more options available to every character all the time, I feel like the turn-based format they're rolling with helps players keep up with martials having more abilities that're always on the go, and spellcasters always having an array of cantrips on the go instead of falling back on a crossbow or something when they're out of slots.

They said on the stream they did of the demo that they were initially planning to use the real-time pause style but when they looked at what players would be capable of doing at any one moment, they felt the turn based style (Which isn't as restrictive as you might have thought) is far more suitable for a game adaptation of 5e specifically.

Yep.

You had it pegged well early.

I watched that first video of the Sven guy running around his office like a dork in a crown after acquiring the D&D license, and what that looked like... but I'll admit I was still around 50-50 they'd at least be able to come up with something that looks like BG and might be worth our time.

But then watching that reveal... it's honestly exactly what I should have expected from the start.

NBD though. There's always something new coming out.

To resume the last few months:
Sven: You know, I don't think it's possible to meet fan expectations, when making a game you have to take creative risks.
proceeds to make D:OS3
gameplay reveal lands at PAX
Sven: What do you think guys!?
Woke millennials cheer with their mouths wide open
Sven: Thank you. Glad you like it. Anyway, early access for Divini - errr BG3 is right around the corner. Stay tuned!
Woke millennials cheer with their mouths wide open
Video game journalists: Baldur's Gate 3 is shaping up to be an original take on the series even if it looks, plays and has exactly the same bugs as Divinity: Original Sin

That pretty much sums it up.

Larian never had any intention of making a true Baldur's Gate sequel, they just wanted to make a straight-up D:OS 2 clone right from the very beginning. Larian could have just made D:OS 3, but then they wouldn't have gotten those WotC/D&D and Baldur's Gate nostalgia dollars.

I have supported both of Larian's Kickstarters, I even backed D:OS 1 when it was just at ~20K dollars and did everything I could to support them and spread the word, as they were a struggling studio. I would have never expected them to pull an EA and just completely s**t all over what so many fans love and cherish dearly, simply out of pure greed.

There is much more to life than video games, but it is a hobby that I admire, and such a move is feels like a kick in the gut, and it really hurts.

To impute greed to Larian/Swen is the most ridiculous thing ever.

He and his team have a vision and that might look different from yours - and to be honest, I also see some issues and IMHO Larian did not do itself a favor to take on BG and apply its own philosophy to it, b/c of diehard BG-fans of which there are many.
But nonetheless lets not lose control over our horses here: Swen makes great RPG games; but fans are greedy themselves. Fans often dont want to evolve and/or change and/or iterate and I can totally relate to that. As I implied here and said elsewhere: This game is called BG but as far as I can tell from 15 Min of pre-alpha(!) it seems more like NWN or even DOS:D&D.
BUT it is still - despite all cries of naysayers - going to be a great D&D game with some Larian philosophy woven in. Just maybe not „good old BG“.
If packaging means more than content to you ... well, maybe you want to rethink your priorities, ignore the - in some peoples opinion not so appropriate - game title and play a still great D&D game (which seems to stay very true to the rule set I might add, which is very important to me).

What is this conspiracy theory level reasoning for saying money was their only motivating factor in taking on Baldur's gate 3?

Like, that's not what their comment said, that's not what ANYONE from the company has said.

Yes this is capitalism so all artistic endeavours are polluted by greed to some degree, just like the rest of society, but I really don't think it's as severe in this case as you're making out.

Quite. It is about money because it has to be: there's no point in going for a level of artistic purity that will have such niche appeal that it'll put them out of business. Some may disagree and there's certainly no shortage of celebrated artists who died paupers to demonstrate that point. But I think in most cases there has to be a balance. I don't see Larian is skirting the territory of insert-publisher-you-love-to-hate in terms of squeezing a franchise until the pips squeak; perhaps that might be seen as a "well you would say that, wouldn't you?" but I'm neither an employee nor a (particularly rabid, anyway) fangirl. I'd like to think just someone with realistic expectations, though I admit I'll still gripe if I don't get what I want!

Don't be naive... Of course they won't say "yea we do it only for money"...

They just said : we take no risks about gameplay but look, it's D&D (paper obvious) turn base gameplay, we added visible dice roll so it's call BG3.

This is not a conspiracy... This is how it works in gaming industry. Larian can't be the "divinity" only studio anymore and has to change, such lots before them (Bioware, EA, Obsidian soon I guess now they are ruled by microsoft). They all sold their souls to "many more easy" money.

The only try of upgrading oldschool RP>G gameplay is Dragon Age and it was 6 years ago for DA:I.
Hey DA:I had the same base gameplay as BG (RTwP) and it has been a real success.
I'm not considering Larian should have done the same. DA:I is not such a great game to me but RTwP could also make money... It just need a little bit more risks and ambition.