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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2017
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First, I'm really excited for the game, it looks great!
I'm personally totally fine with their general, large scale design decisions, but I also preferred Pathfinder Kingmaker with the turn-based mod.
There is one thing that worries me, though:
Making things like shove, throw and jump bonus actions looks fun at first, but it breaks any kind of balance.
Any ambitious player will try to not only perform an attack each turn, but he'll also try to somehow perform an useful bonus action:
Attack + throw random item
Attack + shove someone over a cliff
Attack + jump out of melee range
Attack + .....
This looks good in a short gameplay presentation, but long-term???
How should combat be considered serious if I have no chance to hit twice with my sword during a turn (on level 1), but I can run around, jump around, throw my boots, throw a flask of oil, shove someone over a cliff....
The fact that quite a few of these bonus actions cause damage (e.g throw bottle of oil, then ignite with fire arrows) makes them mandatory for optimized play.
I'd hate to see build optimization guides that focus on creative bonus action usage in adition to "boring" normal attacks/spells!
(to be clear: shoving/throwing as action INSTEAD of an attack is totally fine)
On a related note:
Jumping shouldn't automatically prevent attacks of opportunity!
That's what the disengage action is for (or certain spells).
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Feb 2020
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Gameplay balance im less worried about but it does bother me but i guess it could be balanced espically in harder difficulties and negates some of the randomness that an AI cant account for like a DM
If they include a DM mode though this stuff needs to go. you cant be throwing, chugging potions, disengaging, pushing as Bonus actions because thats better than basically most BAs that require spell slots and would feel crappy for class feats which require you to take up your BA doing other stuff
Last edited by MadameStrangeluv; 01/03/20 10:35 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2019
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Yeah, nullifying the Disengage Action, normally a full round action, with a bonus action jump is more than a little problematic.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2020
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Giving all characters (regardless of class) a series of bonus actions they can use makes sense for a video game. Players new to DnD would otherwise be really confused as to why there is an action point they are unable to use each turn, it gives you more options and will make combat engaging.
Also some of these abilities would probably never be used unless they were bonus actions. When would you choose to throw your boots at an opponent if doing so meant you couldn't swing your sword or cast your firebolt.
Will need to be balanced effectively, but that will come with time and playtesting.
Last edited by Schuesseled; 01/03/20 01:48 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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Giving all characters (regardless of class) a series of bonus actions they can use makes sense for a video game. Players new to DnD would otherwise be really confused as to why there is an action point they are unable to use each turn, it gives you more options and will make combat engaging.
Also some of these abilities would probably never be used unless they were bonus actions. When would you choose to throw your boots at an opponent if doing so meant you couldn't swing your sword or cast your firebolt.
Will need to be balanced effectively, but that will come with time and playtesting. Giving everyone the hide, dash or disengage option as a bonus action removes the point of the rogue having the Cunning Action feature (it specifically allows you to do these things as a bonus action). If you do that you might as well let everyone get other things such as second wind, you know, coz "it's fun". The bonus action is supposed to be exactly that - a small, bonus thing you do during your turn that may help if used well. The features that allow you do different things with your bonus action set the classes apart and gives a different feel to playing each individual class. Making all classes the same is just removing a good part of the replayability of the game. On the topic of boot throwing: it's the same as in actual D&D - almost nobody ever does it except when they're fooling around/making a point because it's sub-optimal. They're adding it to make you feel like you have choices (which is nice) but even in the tabletop version taking the piss costs you something. I don't see why this should now be free. Also, if you get to do silly things like throwing boots at your opponent every round it becomes less of a "silly thing" and more of a "real combat tactic" which is beyond ridiculous and removes the fun from doing these things in the first place.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2017
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@ Schuesseled: I understand what you mean, but this seems like an interface issue fist and foremost. Maybe the bonus action point shouldn't be displayed if you have no suitable action available? Maybe bonus actions should be a separate list to choose from if you have any? I agree that some actions may not be a good choice if they prevent you from actually attacking or casting a spell. Then again, the planned verticality of the landscape might mean that shove is often a good choice (depending on fall damage). And the throw action is probably strong enough with the physics system (oil+fire, water+lightning,...). If not, some items like smoke grenades might make throwing worthy of our action. I really wouldn't want to see obligatory boot-throwing after each shot with a bow, though  It would be plain ridiculous (even if it was a thrown dagger or stone - why are we using a bow in the first place if throwing stuff was viable for combat?)
Last edited by Tomice; 01/03/20 02:17 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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@ Schuesseled: I understand what you mean, but this seems like an interface issue fist and foremost. Maybe the bonus action point shouldn't be displayed if you have no suitable action available? Maybe bonus actions should be a separate list to choose from if you have any? I agree that some actions may not be a good choice if they prevent you from actually attacking or casting a spell. Then again, the planned verticality of the landscape might mean that shove is often a good choice (depending on fall damage). And the throw action is probably strong enough with the physics system (oil+fire, water+lightning,...). If not, some items like smoke grenades might make throwing worthy of our action. I really wouldn't want to see obligatory boot-throwing after each shot with a bow, though It would be plain ridiculous (even if it was a thrown dagger or stone - why are we using a bow in the first place if throwing stuff was viable for combat?) That last point - yes! If you run out of arrows for your bow or it gets broken or simply don't have time to pull out your bow in combat you can absolutely throw your dagger (very limited range) and pull out a 2nd one - great! But it's certainly not something you should be doing round after round coz you're gonna run out of daggers fast. It's clearly and action to do so, just as it is to shoot a bow.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
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One of the biggest problems of DnD 5e is that if youre not a caster, youre probably gonna be full attacking each turn.
Giving martials something to do that isnt "I hit enemy wiht swrod" is definitly a good thing.
Its a balance change, but boy is it a welcome one.
on the disengage, hopefully not generaly a disengage as a bonus action, that seems strange
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2020
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Giving everyone the hide, dash or disengage option as a bonus action
Those weren't bonus actions in the build they were showing off. If I'm recalling correctly the bonus actions available to everyone were: Jump (One use per combat) Help (Revive a downed ally) Some sort of healing wind ability I think Use Potion Throw Shove Dip Hide & Dash were actions, they used the normal action point. We didn't see disengage at all, I'm not even sure it was on the UI, so hard to say on that one. Adding additional bonus actions will require a lot of balancing, some may not work out, shoving or throwing enemies of cliffs seems like the best use of your bonus action each turn for example. That would likely be hard to balance while remaining a bonus action. If the rogue's cunning action was to be balanced with jump/disengage being a bonus action, it could increase the number of times it could be used instead if others can only do this once per combat, as an example of balancing. Once we get early access and after a few balancing passes, we'll know if adding these additional bonus actions is a good idea.
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2017
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One of the biggest problems of DnD 5e is that if youre not a caster, youre probably gonna be full attacking each turn.
Giving martials something to do that isnt "I hit enemy wiht swrod" is definitly a good thing.
Its a balance change, but boy is it a welcome one.
on the disengage, hopefully not generaly a disengage as a bonus action, that seems strange If actions like shove aren't competitive, maybe we should buff them? Maybe by adding some minor blunt damage? Adding an obligatory acrobatic trick every round is not the way to go IMHO. Also, it's entirely realistic that a pure fighter does mostly weapon attacks. If a player doesn't like this, there's always eldritch knights, paladins, rangers,... Most classes have limited casting anyway. Also, there are combat maneuvers for battle masters, so in reality, only the champion subclass for the fighter has no options apart from basic attacks.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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Giving everyone the hide, dash or disengage option as a bonus action
Those weren't bonus actions in the build they were showing off. If I'm recalling correctly the bonus actions available to everyone were: Jump (One use per combat) Help (Revive a downed ally) Some sort of healing wind ability I think Use Potion Throw Shove Dip Hide & Dash were actions, they used the normal action point. We didn't see disengage at all, I'm not even sure it was on the UI, so hard to say on that one. Adding additional bonus actions will require a lot of balancing, some may not work out, shoving or throwing enemies of cliffs seems like the best use of your bonus action each turn for example. That would likely be hard to balance while remaining a bonus action. If the rogue's cunning action was to be balanced with jump/disengage being a bonus action, it could increase the number of times it could be used instead if others can only do this once per combat, as an example of balancing. Once we get early access and after a few balancing passes, we'll know if adding these additional bonus actions is a good idea. Hide was most certainly a bonus action. An example is seen here: https://youtu.be/uYSqQuqCAZI?t=1120 at the linked time he's mousing over hide and you can see it's available. After he uses shove (about 8 seconds later) it's grayed out, meaning he needed his bonus action for that. The other example is later in that combat when the hand hides as a bonus action (the hand only has bonus actions). And yes, disengage isn't an option at all, even though it should be at least an action possibility (it's only an option as part of the jump thing). I like that they added the help action (even though as with everything in that list above it's an action and not a bonus action in 5e) but again, it shouldn't allow you to revive someone making death saving throws, only to stabilize them with a medicine check or using a healer's kit. They've veered so far off of 5e rules with their "house rules" that I'd need a whole new rulebook to just understand how things work in their universe - not something I was expecting from a game that wanted to be based on D&D 5e.
Last edited by Ugmaro; 01/03/20 03:30 PM. Reason: medicine check, not nature check - my bad
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
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Tomice this is not a question of Larian but a queston of WOTC.
THEY had to make those options good btu they didnt.
Larian turning them into minor actions is exactly that, buffing them
I honestly do not understand the argument that these actions are TERRIBLE in DnD and thus should also be terrible in a video game.
no. a fighter should not only hit people with his sword while a wizard does 36 different spells.
This is exactly what is the problem with class imbalance in DnD
And exactly, maneuvers, the thing any melee class should have but dont.
a fighter should indeed probably do a lot with his weapons.
but looking at any HEMA tournaments, i guess shoving and grappling are probably just as important.
and thats just from a "Realism" standpoint which i dont agree with to begin with
Ugmaro it looks like youre just looking at things to disagree wtth.
Larian was quite open with not beeing true to 5e, they said that they were gonna change things.
originally they even said that they would take out MISSING ATTACKS from the game.
Obviously they went back on that, but they never said theyd port the system 1:1
I can easily see why too. I dont play a lot of 5e but when i did, we houseruled a lot, in fact, every Dm seems to do it.
5e is a very bare bones game with tons of balance issues and i cannot imagine why anyone would be adamant to sticking to RAW when it comes to 5e.
I already find it questionable with 3.5 but im glad ToEE did what it did, but sitll.
some houseruling is basically required to run 5e in a fun way.
Last edited by Sordak; 01/03/20 04:10 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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I fully disagree - a fighter has many options to do things - a typical combo would be to shove an opponent (using one of his up to 4 attacks) to the ground, followed by wailing down on the enemy with several attacks with advantage. Or alternatively shove an opponent up to 4 times to get him to fall off a cliff, options that can be extremely strong. As was mentioned, you could also be a battle master, using maneuvers to do different things, such as disarming.
If you want to play a caster with 78 different spells then play a caster with 78 different spells, there's no need to make every character have 100 magical abilities to use. I enjoy playing in our current campaign with my rogue being a combat medic (took Healer feat and Thief archetype) just as much as I'd enjoy playing a cleric casting 2nd lvl healing word and a cantrip round after round.
Wrote response before your edit: so addendum:
They said it would rely heavily on 5e rules and of course change the few things that are needed to make it into a video game format, not that they would rework the whole thing. I haven't seen ANYWHERE that they said they would take out missing attacks (source pls).
Also, saying that I'm arguing for the sake of arguing is just nonsense. I'm saying my mind, please don't take this to a personal level
Last edited by Ugmaro; 01/03/20 04:19 PM. Reason: Edit to respond to edit
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2017
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I´m ok with making them bonus actions if the enemies also do that and the IA use them against you. Fair´s fair.
Last edited by _Vic_; 01/03/20 04:17 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
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Ugmaro thank you THANK You for illustrating my point PERFECTLY.
At level 20.
At level 20 a fighter does this.
At level 20, the time when your average Warrior kicks an enemy to the ground and attacks him three times, making it easier to hit him.
You know what a wizard can do at level 20?
Meteor Swarm, Power word kill oh how about TIme stop, how about Demiplane?
I mean fuck all that, at level 20 a Wizard is gonna be casting a Wish.
So while your Wizard is a literal god.
Your fighter is going to wack a single enemy a couple of times.
Have i illustrated my point by now?
I had to put this here for the people not familliar with DnD 5e.
Neutralizing a single enemy with Attacks that can miss, especialy with bounded accuracy, is terrible.
its not very strong and you dont do this at level 1.
A fighter at level 1 is not doing mutliple actions and attacks and combat moves. hes gonna do one of those things.
And letting him shove thigns for a minor action?
Yeah, thats overpowered mate
Im not mad at you, im not trying to make anything personal here.
but this gets regurgitated a lot as if its fine. When you break it down like that, i dont think anyone can agree that this is good class balance
Last edited by Sordak; 01/03/20 04:34 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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A fighter at level 20 can knock you off your feet, smack you 3 times, use action surge and smack you 4 more times, effectively killing most combatants. Yes, level 20 characters are OP. I said up to for a reason. Oh, he gets his action surges back on short rests? I see, that's much worse than lvl 9 spell slots (which you have 1 of, which can be counterspelled) and you get back on a long rest.
I know what you're saying, martial characters feel weak to you in combat and it's a sentiment I can partially agree with, but I'm not playing my current rogue for combat (though I don't find it boring or something), I'm playing him for all the skills and abilities he brings to the group as part of a team.
Besides, giving shove to everyone just makes the wizard stronger, as he doesn't need to waste his entire action on a shove but can instead do it as a bonus action, leaving his action to rain fire from above. A fighter (mid level) would've only use 1/2 or 1/3 of his action to do so.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
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well a Fighter isnt having alot of skills.
meanwhile a wizard got tons of utility spells that solve "skill challenges" without having to roll to begin with.
as for the shove buffing wizards. Well, yes and no.
It is a buff, but its more so a buff to the fighter as Shove uses Strenght versus the targerts strenght / dex.
This means that a Fighter will succeed more with a shove, and an enemy doing a shove on a wizard is more likeley to succeed
so technically its a small buff to the wizard, a big buff to the fighter and then another big nerf to the wizard (provided enemie salso get shove as a minor action)
As for 9 th level spells and action surge:
Which leaves out that yes, a fighter might brutalize one or two enemies in one round and the wizard might only have one ninth level spell slot IIRC, but that ninth level spell slot isnt gonna evicerate one enemy or two, not even an encounter in the case of wish or creative use of time stop, it might negate multiple encounters or end an entire plot thread, there sno comparison here
Last edited by Sordak; 01/03/20 06:26 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Feb 2020
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Good point - in a contested roll which it should be, the wizard has it worse off. Haven't really considered that... maybe bonus action shove isn't as bad as I thought about it. What are your thoughts on drinking potions, throwing oil flasks or even throwing poisoned daggers into an enemy as a bonus action? I'm kinda scared you can do some stupid combos such as paralyzing someone with a poisoned dagger followed by an automatically failed saving throw on disintegrate for example. Edit to respond to edit: yes, but that only proves it's important to be inventive and not powerful. If you know what you want wish spell is great... if you want to murder someone that powerful any DM worth his salt will say a wish spell can't work but a non-detection spell cast on an assassin will do the job just fine 
Last edited by Ugmaro; 01/03/20 06:34 PM. Reason: responding to edit, #2
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2013
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Well i dont use 5e a lot so im used to systems that have "Minor actons" and not just bonus actions.
in 4e, drinking a potion is a minor action IIRC.
The throwing of objects certainly is odd as a bonus action. i still like it because it gives you more to do, im not a fan of 5e specifically because actions like this almost always are worse than doing a full attack.
As for wish, well thats a very specific situation, wish can be used for so many thigns that its hard to realy comprehend the power of the spell
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Sep 2017
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Tomice this is not a question of Larian but a queston of WOTC.
THEY had to make those options good btu they didnt.
Larian turning them into minor actions is exactly that, buffing them
I honestly do not understand the argument that these actions are TERRIBLE in DnD and thus should also be terrible in a video game.
no. a fighter should not only hit people with his sword while a wizard does 36 different spells.
This is exactly what is the problem with class imbalance in DnD
And exactly, maneuvers, the thing any melee class should have but dont.
a fighter should indeed probably do a lot with his weapons.
but looking at any HEMA tournaments, i guess shoving and grappling are probably just as important.
and thats just from a "Realism" standpoint which i dont agree with to begin with
I'm very open regarding buffs for underused actions, stuff that sounds good on paper but rarely matters. But what Larian did here results in fundamental changes to the action economy. It means that a lot of classes that had special uses for their bonus actions need to be completely rebalanced. It means several spells & abilities need to be rethought, because the action economy is different and the availablility of bonus actions is different. It means dual wielding will be even worse, because there's more ways to use your bonus action effectively. It opens a can of worms resulting in a cascade of departures from the underlying 5e rules. Which in turn means that we won't be able to use builds from P&P on PC (or the other way around). It would be much safer to use movement points for some of these actions. Shoving, disengaging, jumping or hiding could use movement points instead of a (bonus) action. For reference, here's a list of bonus actions that would all need to be rethought or at least checked for balance again with a changed action economy: (not mine - credit goes to Abdiel_Kavash on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/2tr8a4/looking_for_master_list_of_bonus_actions/Barbarian
Enter or end Rage - Barbarian level 1 Rage feature.
Make a melee weapon attack while raging - Barbarian/Path of the Berserker level 3 Frenzy feature.
Dash - Barbarian/Path of the Totem Warrior level 3 Eagle Totem Spirit feature.
Knock a Large or smaller creature prone when you hit it in melee - Barbarian/Path of the Totem Warrior level 14 Wolf Totemic Attunement feature.
Bard
Give Bardic Inspiration to a creature - Bard level 1 Bardic Inspiration feature.
Make a weapon attack if you use your action to cast a Bard spell - Bard/College of Valor level 14 Battle Magic feature.
Cleric
Command creatures charmed by your Charm Animals and Plants feature - Cleric/Nature level 17 Master of Nature feature.
Move your illusion - Cleric/Trickery level 2 Invoke Duplicity feature
Move all of your illusions - Cleric/Trickery level 17 Improved Duplicity feature
Make one weapon attack when you take the Attack action - Cleric/War level 1 War Priest feature.
Druid
Revert to your normal form - Druid level 2 Wild Shape feature.
Use Wild Shape - Druid/Circle of the Moon level 2 Combat Wild Shape feature.
Regain HP by expending a spell slot while transformed - Druid/Circle of the Moon level 2 Combat Wild Shape feature.
Fighter
Second Wind - regain 1d10+CL HP - Fighter level 1 feature.
Commander’s Strike - give a friend a free attack as a reaction - Fighter/Battle Master maneuver.
Feinting Attack - get advantage on the next attack roll - Fighter/Battle Master maneuver.
Rally - add temporary HP to a friend - Fighter/Battle Master maneuver.
Summon a bonded weapon - Fighter/Eldritch Knight level 3 Weapon Bond feature.
Weapon attack when you cast a cantrip as your action - Fighter/Eldritch Knight level 7 War Magic feature
Weapon attack when you cast a spell as your action - Fighter/Eldritch Knight level 18 Improved War Magic feature
Monk
Unarmed Strike when you use the Attack action with an unarmed strike or monk weapon - Monk level 1 Martial Arts feature.
Flurry of Blows, Dodge, Disengage, Dash - Monk level 2 Ki feature.
Teleport up to 60ft - Monk/Way of Shadow level 6 Shadow Step feature.
Water Whip - Monk/Way of the Four Elements discipline.
Paladin
Cast a Paladin spell with a casting time of 1 action - Paladin/Oath of the Ancients level 20 Elder Champion feature.
Vow of Enmity - advantage on attack rolls against one creature - Paladin/Oath of Vengeance level 3 Channel Divinity feature.
Ranger
Hide - as the action - Ranger level 14 Vanish feature.
Command your companion to Dash, Disengage, Dodge, or Help - Ranger/Beast Master level 7 Exceptional Training feature.
Rogue
Dash, Disengage, Hide - as the same action - Rogue level 2 Cuning Action feature.
Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check, use thieves' tools to disarm a trap or open a lock, Use an Object - Rogue/Thief level 3 Fast Hands feature.
Control a Mage Hand created by the cantrip - Rogue/Arcane Trickster level 3 Mage Hand Legerdemain feature.
Distract a target with your Mage Hand - gives you advantage on attack rolls - Rogue/Arcane Trickster level 13 Versatile Trickster feature.
Sorcerer
Convert between spell slots and sorcery points - Sorcerer level 2 Flexible Casting feature.
Cast a spell with casting time of 1 action - Sorcerer Quickened Spell metamagic.
Create or dismiss dragon wings - Sorcerer/Draconic Bloodline level 14 Dragon Wings feature.
Teleport up to 20ft - Wild Magic Surge effect.
Wizard
Make an illusory object real - Wizard/Illusion level 14 Illusory Reality feature.
Feats
Make a weapon attack or shove a creature when you use the Dash action - Charger feat.
Attack with a hand crossbow when you attack with a one-handed weapon - Crossbow Master feat.
Make a melee weapon attack when you crit or reduce a creature to 0 - Great Weapon Master feat.
Melee weapon attack with the opposite end of a weapon - Polearm Master feat.
Attempt a grapple when you hit with unarmed strike or improvised weapon - Tavern Brawler feat.
Spells with a casting time of a bonus action
Banishing Smite, Blinding Smite, Branding Smite, Compelled Duel, Divine Favor, Divine Word, Ensnaring Strike, Expeditious Retreat, Flame Blade, Grasping Vine, Hail of Thorns, Healing Word, Hex, Hunter's Mark, Lightning Arrow, Magic Weapon, Mass Healing Word, Misty Step, Sanctuary, Searing Smite, Shield of Faith, Shillelagh, Spiritual Weapon, Staggering Smite, Swift Quiver, Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite
Spells which allow you to do something as a bonus action
Animate Dead, Animate Objects, Create Undead, Dancing Lights, Flaming Sphere, Grasping Vine, Mordenkainen’s Sword, Spiritual Weapon, Unseen Servant - command summoned creatures or objects.
Arcane Gate - rotate the gate.
Aura of Vitality - heal one creature in range for 2d6 HP.
Bigby's Hand - move the hand or crush a grappled creature.
Compulsion - command targets to move in a direction of your choice.
Expeditious Retreat - Dash, as the action.
Flame Blade - resummon the blade if you dropped it.
Gust of Wind - change direction of the wind.
Heat Metal - cause the spell's damage again.
Hex - move the curse on another creature, if the cursed creature died.
Hunter's Mark - move the mark on another creature, if the marked creature died.
Mislead - switch between using your senses or those of your illusion.
Swift Quiver - make two attacks which use ammunition.
Other
Attack with an off-hand weapon - Two-weapon fighting.
Last edited by Tomice; 01/03/20 08:11 PM.
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