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addict
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Funny. I always see RTwP more like this: SHH
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stranger
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stranger
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Funny. I always see RTwP more like this: SHHthats simultaneous turn based
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stranger
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stranger
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I like how theres alot of ppl here who just made accounts to come spam negatively. Heres the thing, If you're going to quote Gygax from 1987 do it in proper context. First of all that was 1987, i have that book from that time. that was at a time when dnd was not even a videogame, hell a lot of ppl i know played dnd outside with fake swords and bows and die. that does not translate to a videogame in 2020. it was never meant to be a videogame in the first place when they first started.
Secondly, what gygax said about rules does not apply to 2020 gaming. it applies to TT play back in the day. you must have rules to the extent for the game to exist. No its not chess and neither are other RPGs, TB doesnt equal chess so thats an irrelevant argument as gygax quote from 87 is not referring to present day or the fine tunings of a pc game. I love how you ppl say "there's no rules" when theres TB but if it was rtwp youd say its the best game ever.
There have been more older ppl coming and voicing they prefer the new system over the old one, pillars and other rpgs have added or modded their rtwp games to have tb because it drew in more ppl. Thats because its system that ppl enjoy and its why the TT is successful. Mike from wizards wanted a 5e tt video game and he Loved bg1-2. Its also multiplayer with a DM mode which a messy rtwp system cannot produce. No one in the majority is going to pay 60$ to play a rtwp game, especially not the DnD community.
"But the series" yes a series from a different era of gaming when companies were just getting their feet wet and still green. Lets be honest the niche minority wants an graphics upgrade of bg. They want a videogame that has all the great lore and fluff of dnd but with rtwp when in reality TT doesnt work like that which is what wizards requested. does this mean TT purists exists? no they dont because most tt players whether its warhammer or dnd dont care what ppl that sit on steam all day have to say or gamers for that matter. their not sitting complaining that videogames need to be like their dice rolling games. What this bg3 does is bring ppl from tt to gaming and vice versa. this game is definitely meant for ppl that cant find TT groups to play with because they have a busy life; But now can play with friends online which is one of its goals.
Its funny how the loudest barking love to coordinate attacks and misquote to drive a point home when most of them werent even alive when we were drawing runes on pebbles from the front yard or making our own grimoires held together with ducktape and printer paper but want to quote gygax as if all that applies to the videogame industry.
I enjoyed bg, it was lovely storytelling and world i will always hate that sarevok lost almost all his powers but the combat was garbage thats because the studio was just starting to make way and other idiot studios tried to copy(in the modern day) what they saw was successful even though in the greater scheme and long run would not fly. which brings me to DA:I. No one use the rtwp function they just switch to Solas or Cole, etc. while the fight rages on WITHOUT PAUSING every .4 sec. Why? because no one is interested in a stuttering rtwp mess as messy as DA can get. you issue what commands without stopping the fight even for a second. That game is a Solo Action Adventure game with tactics/strategy though and is also NOT what wizards wanted. Its their game, their lore and what they wanted to bring their Tt game to gamers whether they are Tt or not for online multiplayer experience. Not just a solo action adventure.
I personally love DAI combat system without pause and all games have hidden dice roles as part of its programmed mechanics. But bg1-2 is not 5e dnd game nor is DAI, bg3 Is a TT videogame meant to be played with others OR solo, not to mention it has modes/func in it that allow for actual sneaking around as a rogue which no other games truly have in a tactical sense. So dont misquote gygax out of context and be biased because you dont like what you see which we barely seen anything yet. if it was rtwp you wouldnt misquote gygax when gygax never thought this would be a videogame one day. No point in make new accounts to vent pointlessly and be toxic because you dont own any shares in the industry to do so. Trying to spread your personal ill intent amongst ppl who like what they see is just attempt to ruin something you dont like and therefore you dont consider the happiness of others. its time to stop being petty, besides most the ppl complaining as i said previously last year will either buy the game still or will definitely watch the game at the very least. whether their salty or not.
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Banned
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Decades passed, D. & D. movies and cartoons came and went, and the game remade itself over and over. But interest fell like an orc beneath a bastard sword. The game’s designers, surrounded by copycats and perplexed about how to bring D. & D. online, made flat-footed attempts at developing new rule books to mimic the video games that D. & D. had inspired. Gygax died, in 2008, occasioning a wealth of tributes but little enthusiasm. Then, a fifth edition of D. & D. rules came out, in 2014, and, somehow, the culture was receptive again to bags of holding and silver-haired drow. People started buying up these volumes in droves. “More people are interested in D&D than we thought,” the game’s lead developer, Mike Mearls, said, as print runs repeatedly sold out. “Who are these people? What do they want?”
The structures the designers made are also simpler and more subjective. If a player thinks of something clever, you don’t have to thumb through a handbook for a strictly defined bonus.
“Ever since we were primitive sitting around campfires, we’ve been telling stories to each other, and listening to each other tell stories to each other,” a D. & D. designer explained. “There’s really nothing out there that can perfectly emulate it digitally.” And we know that Gygax would approve. Earlier this year, a graphic novel titled “Rise of the Dungeon Master,” based on interviews for a Wired article by David Kushner, depicted the D. & D. creator robed and on a throne, playing one final session just before his death. “D&D is not an online game,” he told Kushner. “There is no role-playing in an online game that can match what happens in person.” Dungeons & Dragons – D&D to fans – isn't a straightforward board game like Monopoly or Clue. It's more like an operating system, an elaborate framework on which players can build their own scenarios.
Richard Garriott encountered the game at computer camp in 1977. After organizing D&D sessions back home, he ported the role-playing experience into PC games like Akalabeth and later the Ultima franchise. He says that D&D's primordial game engine was a perfect match for number-crunching home computers. "D&D allowed people to build a numerical representation of themselves, a numerical representation of a monster, a numerical representation of how a character and monsters could interact," he says. "If there had never been D&D, computer games would be more like simple arcade games, like Pac-Man and Pong." Essentially, D&D is collaborative storytelling. Players pretend to be fantasy characters who embark on a group adventure. They battle monsters, explore terrain and roll the dice to decide outcomes. A Dungeon Master guides the narrative.
More people are playing, partly, because it has never been easier. D&D used to be a nitpicky, number-crunchy affair. Then, in 2014, Wizards of the Coast released a new edition — the beloved 5th edition — that is more streamlined, more spontaneous and less rule-driven. As the longtime L.A.-based player Barry Thomas Drake, 58, explains: “No more arguing about the precise number of mouse hairs you need for a certain spell.”
Arellano maintains a home library of more than 1,000 D&D-related books — on the history of China, Africa, Egypt, on coinage and trade and castles. “Because you never know when you might need to describe the proper layout of a burial vault.” Dungeons & Dragons is a game that's played first of all on the tabletop — at least originally it was. It's a game where you all get together. The game is refereed by someone called the Dungeon Master who kind of describes what the rest of the gamers see and hear. So the rest of the participants who work together cooperatively make these various characters like fighters and wizards and thieves and whatnot, and you kind of react to what the Dungeon Master lays out before you.
Many of the derivative games — and maybe it's all of the derivative games we've talked about — whether it be computer role-playing games or whatnot, they actually lack most of the most important fundamental elements of a role-playing game. ... That is, sitting around with your friends and participating in this kind of group storytelling exercise: actually being in a room physically sitting at a table with nothing but pencils and paper and dice. How D&D normally works is that there’s a game master who is running the game. They’re the narrator of the story. And the different people are the different characters in the story. It’s an interactive story—the dungeon master will tell you, This is going on; this is what you see. And then you get feedback from the players on what they want to do. It can be a never-ending story. This one in particular tells my opinion on why origin stories are a bad thing for D&D: As false to the game form as the pre-scripted "story," is play that has little more in it than seek and destroy missions, vacuous effort where the participants fight and kill some monster so as to gain more power and thus be able to look for yet more potent opponents in a spiral that leads nowhere save eventual boredom. So pure hack and slash play is anathema to me too. Tactical, and strategic, play is a fine addition to the RPG, and if it is in-character, something I see as desirable, In this category fall such things as exploration, economics, politics, and even intrigue. At its core, Dungeons & Dragons is a group storytelling game. You can think of it a lot like a collective choose-your-own-adventure book. One player prepares a fantasy story of sorcery and adventure, then the rest of the players take charge of characters in that story and gather together—preferably around a kitchen table—to cooperatively tell the tale. Maybe the story you'll tell is a mystery. Maybe it follows the classic hero's arc. Or, heck, maybe the story is just thin window-dressing with a series of spectacular battles. D&D is all of these things, and just as there is no single best way to tell a story, there is no "right" way to play D&D.
the entire game flows from a simple three-step process, looped over and over again:
1) The narrator of the game or Dungeon Master (or simply DM) describes the environment.
2) The players describe what they wanted, or were attempting to do. This usually involved throwing around some dice.
3) The DM refereed the success or failure of what the players attempted, and then narrated the results of the player's actions. All of those D&D consumers are snapping up the Fifth Edition, a new rule set released in 2014 that emphasizes a flexible approach to combat and decision-making. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/06/opinion/sunday/dungeons-and-dragons.htmlWhile turn-based games favor more strategic and transparent play, they can feel a little stodgy to players used to action-oriented titles. Real-time games, on the other hand, are more immersive and multiplayer-friendly but can also easily overwhelm new players if they are not well-paced. Turn-based games, of course, descend directly from the board game tradition which predates video games. Indeed, the fanbase for turn-based games still overlaps significantly with the fanbase for board and card games. Real-time games (excluding sports) were only truly possible with the advent of computers. I prefer turn based, it seems more strategic to me instead of reacting to real time events.
I just recently played Divinity Original Sin EE and Pillars of Eternity back to back, the former being turn based and the latter real time with pause. I found that I was almost playing PoE like a turn based game in some respects - issue commands, pause after they were carried out, then issue new ones, repeat. If I wasn't continually adjusting what I wanted each character to do, I fared worse in the battles.
Good turn-based combat is a puzzle, where you're trying to get as much use from the limited actions and resources available to you. The fun part is figuring out how to solve the puzzle. If you could jump on a development team and direct a project, who would you join?
Oh, I'd probably like work with the Neverwinter Nights people [BioWare] at some point. They seem to have a good notion about what to do. I've learned enough about computers and programming from this school to understand this better over the last four and a half years. It's easy to say "Oh, they're not doing it right." But, could they do it any other way? Well, the answer is probably no, at this point. Also, you've got to get the game done in a couple of years. The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other.
Combat Step by Step
1.Determine surprise.
2.Establish positions.
3.Roll initiative.
4.Take turns.
5.Begin the next round. BioWare planned for Baldur’s Gate to be a blend of old and new. “It was kind of this examination of the old Gold Box games in terms of their depth and their adherence to the [D&D] rules,” Oster says, referring to a series of D&D RPGs produced by Strategic Simulations, Inc. in the late ’80s and early ’90s. “But then bringing that forward into an almost real-time-strategy-style interface.”
“It became pretty obvious pretty quick that there was no way you were gonna be able to play the depths of D&D in real time without ever pausing the game,” Oster says. “That’s when we came up with the ‘pause and play’ plan.” That addition enabled players to stop in the middle of the game, queue up commands to their party, and then restart the real-time action. Although Baldur’s Gate didn’t invent this “active pause” approach, it did help popularize it. “When you play Fallout to this day with the V.A.T.S. system for the slow-motion targeting, I think you can trace the origins of all that back to the ‘pause and play’ idea,” Greig says. Those mechanics made Baldur’s Gate a technical improvement upon previous RPGs...
Baldur’s Gate became the best-selling game in the two weeks following its release, moving 175,000 copies in that time and vindicating BioWare’s pre-release outreach. It topped 500,000 by the end of February and hit the 1.5 million mark by May 2001. “This is a 100 percent standard procedure now for any game,” Greig says. “A key part of the marketing is engaging with the core audience and doing developer diaries, and they’ve got teams of people whose job is just to do this.” Inadvertently, BioWare had helped guide developers in how to sell games as well as how to make them.
“The ones that have been successful haven’t tried to remake what we did, because when we made it we weren’t trying to make Baldur’s Gate,” Kristjanson says, adding, “You can reduce that too much to, ‘Oh, this should be authentic D&D with the numbers.’ Well, even D&D isn’t authentic D&D. It’s every group has their house rule, and that house rule is because of the way that your particular collection of awesome weirdos wants to play it.” Excellent wiki article on what RT/P is. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealTimeWithPause
Last edited by kungfukappa; 06/03/20 08:24 PM.
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stranger
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@kung, None of these links have to do with relevant points. The point was wizards wanted to translate 5e rules into videogame. you're trying to use these links to validate your feelings when you dont even know what their goal is. how about you rock to wizards of the coast and tell them theyre wrong for telling larian what they wanted in the game. better yet go tell Mike who with the wizards team theyre dojng it wrong
Last edited by Laith; 06/03/20 08:26 PM.
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Banned
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Banned
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There is no possible way you could have read the articles I posted in that short a time. I am sorry, but you have to do better than that.
edit: did you even READ it? because I don't actually give an opinion on ANYTHING except one of the links. Do you know which one? I doubt it, because now you will go back to look for it.
Last edited by kungfukappa; 06/03/20 08:28 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Mar 2020
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Why not both? Just have the option to choose which you would prefer...
As for the argument that turn-based is closer to real DnD, there are 2 things I have to say about this argument:
1.) yes, it is, but only due to necessity, as you cannot implement real-time combat into a pnp game. DnD is turn-based because it has to be.
2.) Although turn-based is how dnd is played, it is not how BG is played, and that is where the divide is. DnD fans seem to want to try and dismiss this with reasons such as "BG is a 20yr old game" or "you have to pause after every turn, so it's practically turn-based anyway" (no, it's not the same...)
Yes, wanting the game to stay as true to the rules as it can is a valid concern, but when you already have 2 previous games with expansions that use rtwp combat in the franchise, (as well as all other Infinity Engine games and the NWN games) that reasoning becomes a harder sell. If Larian were developing just a DnD 5e game, there would be little to no controversy, but they aren't - they are specifically developing Baldurs Gate 3, and whether it's due to tech limitations of the time or whatever, rtwp combat has solidified itself as a staple aspect of Baldur's Gate.
For what rtwp lacks in"authenticity" in terms of DnD rules/playstyle, it makes up for in being able to accomplish what pnp DnD cannot - bring the battle to life, visually, in real-time, and not just in your imagination. BG was able to do this, and I think it is a big part of why it is adored so much, even to this date.
Again, I want to stress, that I am in favor of offering BOTH options, not one over the other.
Last edited by H0RSE; 06/03/20 08:38 PM.
"I don't mean to sound bitter, cold or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."
- Bill Hicks
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stranger
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stranger
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@kung no and no one is going to read webpages worth thats time consuming but what youve posted here is readable enough. as i stated just before your recent quote fest, you are completely missing the point of what wizards asked for so all this quoting youre doing is going no where its not going to change wizards or larians mind nor is it ppl who play ad&d-5e minds. Especially when this is not referring to bg3 but things that dont align with wizards goals. as i said in my post right before yours.
Last edited by Laith; 06/03/20 08:34 PM.
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no and no one is going to read webpages worth thats time consuming but what youve posted here is readable enough. as i stated just before your recent quote fest, you are completely missing the point of what wizards asked for so all this quoting youre doing is going no where its not going to change wizards or larians mind nor is it ppl who play ad&d-5e minds. Especially when this is not referring to bg3 but things that dont align with wizards goals. as i said in my post right before yours. There are plenty of people who are interested in articles and interviews about the topic. Just because Wizard asked for something doesn't mean that what they asked for is immune to criticism. You admit to being willfully ignorant and lazy and unwilling to even engage in opinions that differ from yours. You are not worth talking to.
Last edited by kungfukappa; 06/03/20 08:35 PM.
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veteran
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This is another conflict due to the name of this game. Thanks to Larian and WoTC 
Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/03/20 08:36 PM.
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stranger
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@kung cool and they will read all that if they wish but as i said it validates nothing, and most wont because the games been made and its not being changed just because you're heated about it.
Last edited by Laith; 06/03/20 08:48 PM.
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stranger
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no and no one is going to read webpages worth thats time consuming but what youve posted here is readable enough. as i stated just before your recent quote fest, you are completely missing the point of what wizards asked for so all this quoting youre doing is going no where its not going to change wizards or larians mind nor is it ppl who play ad&d-5e minds. Especially when this is not referring to bg3 but things that dont align with wizards goals. as i said in my post right before yours. There are plenty of people who are interested in articles and interviews about the topic. Just because Wizard asked for something doesn't mean that what they asked for is immune to criticism. You admit to being willfully ignorant and lazy and unwilling to even engage in opinions that differ from yours. You are not worth talking to. You mean i admit to not feeding the fact that you living right now every second of your seething at the idea of this game and will be ignorant to wizards request and how if they cared about those statements your posting that dont refer to a 5e videogame that your just trying to accuse anyone who wont see it your way as being ignorant just because your quotes arent enough we must go read articles that have nothing to do with what wizards ask which is on tape btw you can watch it yourself. these articles or quotes are not gojng to change anything so really your just here to vent because your upset and have nothing better to do with your time. you dont even think or read others posts thoroughly before spamming things that have nothing to do with wizards aims for this game. Thats ignorance, not telling someone else their admitting ignorance cause they wont read articles that have nothing to do with the status. since you cant have your game how you like it you try to argue to get your frustration out. as i said inmy post before your quotefest if it was rtwp you wouldnt be misquoting when no matter what you say you dont control what wotc chooses to do. lol. so whine on.
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stranger
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stranger
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Why not both? Just have the option to choose which you would prefer...
As for the argument that turn-based is closer to real DnD, there are 2 things I have to say about this argument:
1.) yes, it is, but only due to necessity, as you cannot implement real-time combat into a pnp game. DnD is turn-based because it has to be.
2.) Although turn-based is how dnd is played, it is not how BG is played, and that is where the divide is. DnD fans seem to want to try and dismiss this with reasons such as "BG is a 20yr old game" or "you have to pause after every turn, so it's practically turn-based anyway" (no, it's not the same...)
Yes, wanting the game to stay as true to the rules as it can is a valid concern, but when you already have 2 previous games with expansions that use rtwp combat in the franchise, (as well as all other Infinity Engine games and the NWN games) that reasoning becomes a harder sell. If Larian were developing just a DnD 5e game, there would be little to no controversy, but they aren't - they are specifically developing Baldurs Gate 3, and whether it's due to tech limitations of the time or whatever, rtwp combat has solidified itself as a staple aspect of Baldur's Gate.
For what rtwp lacks in"authenticity" in terms of DnD rules/playstyle, it makes up for in being able to accomplish what pnp DnD cannot - bring the battle to life, visually, in real-time, and not just in your imagination. BG was able to do this, and I think it is a big part of why it is adored so much, even to this date.
Again, I want to stress, that I am in favor of offering BOTH options, not one over the other. i dont mean this as antagonizing or mean. Myself and others are not dismissing bg as we also played and enjoyed those games, its not fair to put opinions into ppls mouth that are not present to speak for themselves. i was referring if you read my post to a certain quote that was misquoted to prove a point that has nothing to do with the design goals of wotc which is what everyone is missing for some reason. Bg is not ignored nor is it dismissed wotc and mike acknowledged it non stop ffs. but rehashing an old system is just not part of their goals. again if you read my post you can see i like many others played both dnd and bg and are nott bothered by a change. majority of ppl dont want another rtwp which does not sell to a majority bg was best selling in its genre not in overall gaming. it was also best selling at a time when only certain ppl gamed on pc during a time when gaming wasnt even considered cool and wasnt popular on a mass scale like it is today. if ppl would understand that if wizards asked for rtwp games from back then you would get that, its just not what they asked for. its not fair to talk about dnd fans when dnd fans mostly dont game like most others and dont have account on forums to argue a point because they just dont care like that even though alot of them played bg. but this game is now getting to play a videogame and showing gamers what TT experience is like. unless youve spent alot of time at tables or have been playing dnd a long time its not safe to say the argument is dismissed because "20yr old game etc." when the argument is deeper than that. and to add DA:I did RT without pause the best that felt like real time, if DAI didnt have the option to not play with pause it would feel like a mess hence why viturally no one uses the pause on that game. a game like DAI i can get behind. Not to mention rtwp has 0 verticality and almost no interaction with object with the enviornment which are mostly decor. which is extremely disappointing in a so called rpg where anything is possible
Last edited by Laith; 06/03/20 09:08 PM.
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journeyman
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What exactly is your agenda here, kung-fu kappa? You've already said you won't buy the game, you obviously think the whole concept of a turn based baldurs gate 3 made by larian is wrong. Why are you still posting here? You will not change anyone's mind no matter how many interviews you post. If you have nothing to contribute to discussion about the game itself, why post here?
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Banned
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I have as much right to speak about my opinion here as you do. I have no agenda. You are equally as capable of not responding to me as you are of advising me to leave if I am not happy with the game. You are not the gatekeeper of opinions. I have had many good discussions here already, but I seem to becoming a bigger target for people like you who have a "like it or leave it" mentality, which is so contrary to what community stands for. I will just ignore you, to avoid conflict.
Last edited by kungfukappa; 06/03/20 09:29 PM.
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stranger
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who knows? maybe games forums serve the purpose of voicing your opinion ?
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veteran
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veteran
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What exactly is your agenda here, kung-fu kappa? You've already said you won't buy the game, you obviously think the whole concept of a turn based baldurs gate 3 made by larian is wrong. Why are you still posting here? You will not change anyone's mind no matter how many interviews you post. If you have nothing to contribute to discussion about the game itself, why post here? I personnaly have to admit I like reading his posts (such as many others) because his thought about the game fits generaly with mine 
Last edited by Maximuuus; 06/03/20 09:40 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
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What exactly is your agenda here, kung-fu kappa? You've already said you won't buy the game, you obviously think the whole concept of a turn based baldurs gate 3 made by larian is wrong. Why are you still posting here? You will not change anyone's mind no matter how many interviews you post. If you have nothing to contribute to discussion about the game itself, why post here? What exactly is your agenda here, anjovis? You've said you like the game, why are still you posting here? You won't change anyone's mind. If you have nothing to contribute to discussion about the game itself, why post here?
Last edited by vometia; 07/03/20 02:56 AM. Reason: formatting
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stranger
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stranger
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I have as much right to speak about my opinion here as you do. I have no agenda. You are equally as capable of not responding to me as you are of advising me to leave if I am not happy with the game. You are not the gatekeeper of opinions. I have had many good discussions here already, but I seem to becoming a bigger target for people like you who have a "like it or leave it" mentality, which is so contrary to what community stands for. I will just ignore you, to avoid conflict. Opinions isnt the argument. The games been announced now so had this been before announcement it would not look as stupid on your part and no one would ask why youre spamming. but you just made an account not even a few days ago just to respond to the pax reveal. So your not here for just an opion or even the topic, youre trying to prove something that does not matter and is in contrary to the established system in the game and youre non stop complaining about it. its literally what ppl have been doing for ages is joining just to complain when you didnt even play divinity most likely. which is fine if you disagree about but spammin articles in ppls faces and handing out tracks when no ones asking for it just makes you a loud man on the street as with the rest of the ppl that act just like you. 80 something post for someone who just joined barely 2020 a few days a go is you trying to drive a point that youre upset about, not just sharing your opinion after the game has announced what its going to be. its just uncalled for whennyiu couldve just stated how you feel and left it at that.
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