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MasterServo #665832 07/04/20 08:55 PM
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I love how everyone wants an accurate D&D translation... until the actual D&D rules start getting applied.

Last edited by qhristoff; 07/04/20 08:55 PM.
qhristoff #665835 07/04/20 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
I love how everyone wants an accurate D&D translation... until the actual D&D rules start getting applied.


I totally agree

PS: We need a like button.


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Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Are mindflayers much nerfed on 5e? Because on BG2 i had problem dealing with then with high level party members. How they plan to have a low level game with such powerful creatures?


Since intellect devourers are CR7 creatures that are considered by most DMs as party killers and in the gameplay, a party of two just killed three of them easily (and the Intellect devourers did not use any of the nasty psionic powers they have and made them very dangerous in PNP) I will assume that many creatures are de-levelled and nerfed in BG3 (The devs announced that the game will have a level cap of 10).

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...type/aberrations/intellect-devourer-3pp/

qhristoff #665843 07/04/20 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
I love how everyone wants an accurate D&D translation... until the actual D&D rules start getting applied.


Like with Temple of elemental evil? The best and most faithful D&D adaptation ever?

I an not against Larian making rule alterations. As longs it remains OPTIONAL.


Originally Posted by _Vic_
Originally Posted by SorcererVictor
Are mindflayers much nerfed on 5e? Because on BG2 i had problem dealing with then with high level party members. How they plan to have a low level game with such powerful creatures?


Since intellect devourers are CR7 creatures that are considered by most DMs as party killers and in the gameplay, a party of two just killed three of them easily (and the Intellect devourers did not use any of the nasty psionic powers they have and made them very dangerous in PNP) I will assume that many creatures are de-levelled and nerfed in BG3 (The devs announced that the game will have a level cap of 10).

https://www.5esrd.com/gamemastering...type/aberrations/intellect-devourer-3pp/



Nice point. Good to mention that the party was a LV 1 party. If they wanna nerf monsters, they could write "LESSER monster X"

On NWN1, a game where you exit the tutorial at lv 3, a single intellect devourer on chapter 1 that i fought at lv 6 was a pretty tougth enemy

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 07/04/20 09:54 PM.
MasterServo #665877 08/04/20 07:22 AM
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5e is a terrible edition so why are you surprised
its a horrible gold standard for anything and i dont think ive seen 5e played even once without houseruling

Sordak #665929 08/04/20 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
5e is a terrible edition so why are you surprised
its a horrible gold standard for anything and i dont think ive seen 5e played even once without houseruling


5e is by far the best edition created by far, only 3.5e and in some ways 4e even come close, on most things previous editions were a mess.

MasterServo #665934 08/04/20 05:52 PM
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>5e
>best edition
how. its third edition only more barebones

Sordak #665935 08/04/20 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
>5e
>best edition
how. its third edition only more barebones

3e was kinda exaggerated with the amount of skills and fetas. The combat innovations in 5e are great, maybe it just needed some more skills since many from 3.5 were merged.

MasterServo #665936 08/04/20 06:18 PM
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>combat innovations
such as? not beeing able to charge anymore?
or maneuvers that are basically tome of battles only worse?

MasterServo #665937 08/04/20 06:58 PM
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5e is a streamlined version of 3.5e.

My concern is how much nerfed enemies will gonna be due the lv cap = 10.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 08/04/20 06:59 PM.
Sordak #665940 08/04/20 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sordak
>combat innovations
such as? not beeing able to charge anymore?
or maneuvers that are basically tome of battles only worse?


Combat timing with action, bonus action and reaction. Advantage is cool as well.
I think there is a feat that allows you to charge, and you can also shield bash.
But for those that want to stick with 3.5 there is always Kingmaker.

Last edited by Danielbda; 08/04/20 07:48 PM.
MasterServo #665946 08/04/20 11:16 PM
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Uh, you already have that. It was called swift actions, free actions, ready actions, and standard actions. You also had different bonuses and penalties, but they were made using numbers, not a mish-mash for everything called advantage/disadvantage that does not stack.

Shield bash and charge do exist, but those require a feat that you have to take and let me remember you that in 5e you have to choose between a feat and improve your stats, and you do not have feats until level 4 (unless you play a variant human, which is banned by many DMs).

Most combat maneuvers are now pointless. Knocking someone down only takes away half of their movement, so he can get up, move and attack as always; and stand up does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can also cast spells surrounded by enemies without provoking. You can disarm someone and he just takes the weapon from the ground in the next turn and attacks without penalties. Flanking is now optional, and some DM´s do not use it. Heavy armour is only useful for a character that has negative dexterity, etc

Those are only a few examples you named before.

5e it´s fun to play, but the mechanics are too simplified for my taste. What I meant by simplified is that they took away lots of features just not to "complicate" things. I usually homebrew some of this stuff just to get back some of them.








Last edited by _Vic_; 09/04/20 02:22 AM.
MasterServo #665964 09/04/20 06:30 AM
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none of these things were invented by 5e.
And the 5e versions of them are all incredibly toned down (like only one reaction per turn, rather than one reaction per ENEMY turn)

MasterServo #665966 09/04/20 06:34 AM
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I'm looking forward to when the D&D hardcores realize how many changes Larian has actually made to the system to make it work for a video game, because Larian - like Bioware - knows that you cannot 100% translate PnP to a PC game.

_Vic_ #665980 09/04/20 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Uh, you already have that. It was called swift actions, free actions, ready actions, and standard actions. You also had different bonuses and penalties, but they were made using numbers, not a mish-mash for everything called advantage/disadvantage that does not stack.

Shield bash and charge do exist, but those require a feat that you have to take and let me remember you that in 5e you have to choose between a feat and improve your stats, and you do not have feats until level 4 (unless you play a variant human, which is banned by many DMs).

Most combat maneuvers are now pointless. Knocking someone down only takes away half of their movement, so he can get up, move and attack as always; and stand up does not provoke attacks of opportunity. You can also cast spells surrounded by enemies without provoking. You can disarm someone and he just takes the weapon from the ground in the next turn and attacks without penalties. Flanking is now optional, and some DM´s do not use it. Heavy armour is only useful for a character that has negative dexterity, etc

Those are only a few examples you named before.

5e it´s fun to play, but the mechanics are too simplified for my taste. What I meant by simplified is that they took away lots of features just not to "complicate" things. I usually homebrew some of this stuff just to get back some of them.



I have not played a 5E game yet, but from reading the PHB I like it more than 3E.
I have played played lots of computer RPGs and I think DnD 3E was the ruleset that was most difficult to understand.

I will use Pathfinder Kingmaker as example, since I consider pathfinder as DnD 3.75 and it was relatively close to the PnP rules, as far as I understand them.
I had problems in this game and often my head was smoking when I tried to understand stuff.
The char I made was not good even though I did lots of reading before.
- You have free actions, swift actions, standart actions, full round actions, move actions and maybe more. It was not always clear to me what I can do.
In 5E each round I can move x feet and I have one action, one bonus action and one reaction.
- Stacking bonusses was not easy. For every buff you had to remember if it is a morale, luck, enhancement, sacred, profane, . . . or whatever bonus. Buffs of a different type stack, buffs of the same type only apply the strongest effect. Some stuff from equipment does not stack with spells. I had to write down which spells work together with which other spells or which equipment. Stacking buffs is needed, combat is very hard without. I am sure I was not as efficient as I could have been because some of my spells got suppressed or I did not use others which would have worked but I thought they don´t.
- Same thing for armor. There are many kinds of armor (dodge, deflection, natural, armor, enhancement, dex bonus, . . .), I guess except dodge nothing stacks with itself, some of those worked not against touch attacks or when flat footed. Having a warrior in heavy armor and a huge shield was often useless when enemies used touch attacks. Looks like the best way to avoid being hit is to be naked, collect defensive bonusses from different classes and having wizard buffs. I am still not sure how to be a good tank, most enemies hit me most of the time.
- Personally I prefer the 5E idea behind classes. You start with a base class and then you specialize into a subclass of this class. For me this looks better than the prestigue classes of 3E or adding tons of new classes that are a mix of 2 other classes. In 3E sometimes you had to select useless feats or skills only to qualify for a specific class.

I admit that the system of D:OS2 was too simple for me, though my main reason why I disliked it were inflating numbers and I get flooded with completely random items.
I am not against complexity, but it makes no sense to make things complicated just for the sake of being complicated. No, DnD was never a realistic simulation of anything and will never be.
I have studies physics engineering and one main rule for constructing things was: " As simple as possible, as complex as needed. "
RPGs are one of the most complex type of games and thats one of the reasons why we like them, but the devs should not try to deliberately confuse players with complicated rules.

The character system I like most is the one from PoE2. The basics are easy to understand ( hit chance = acc - defense +1d100, passive effects stack, active effects do not stack ), you have lots of options and the forum is full of different builds and discussions how to make a better char. Only the double inversion ruins an intuitive understanding of most rules. ( The devs have made up a system where the numbers are hard to understand if you combine bonusses and penalties. So a bonus of +20% and a penalty of -20% will not result in zero effect. The system is fine from a mathematical point of view, but players and even some devs have problems to understand it.)

Last edited by Madscientist; 09/04/20 11:22 AM.

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qhristoff #665983 09/04/20 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by qhristoff
I'm looking forward to when the D&D hardcores realize how many changes Larian has actually made to the system to make it work for a video game, because Larian - like Bioware - knows that you cannot 100% translate PnP to a PC game.


Say that to the devs of Temple of Elemental Evil... The most faithful D&D adaptation.

All deviations from the core rules lead to a worst gameplay. Not only to complete disregard to rules like sword coast legends. Look to nwn1. Pale masters are useless on nwn1, arcane archers too. On NWN2, warlock without warlock reworked mod is useless too. Despite loving Baldur's Gate and NWN1, BG 1/2 would be far better if was a faithful adaptation like ToEE.

I honestly would rather they not including a class than including in a ultra nerfed state(warlock on nwn2 for eg)

This is how D&D adaptations needs to be

MasterServo #665991 09/04/20 04:42 PM
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Sorry Victor, I own TOEE ( got it for free on gog ) but I will probably not play it.
Almost all people say: Combat is fantastic, the rest is a desaster.
I have played IWD1 but I have never finished it. Not because it was too hard but because I became bored.
The combat was good, but there was not much else.
In a spectrum where IWD is on one end, BG in the middle and PST at the other end, I am a fan of PST ( or Disco Elysium as example of a great new game).

While combat is an importent part in RPGs, its not everything.

Two of my favourite games are PST and arcanum.
Both have poor and rather easy combat, but PST has one of the best stories ever and arcanum is great for immersive role playing when NPC react different to a beautiful charismatic elf lady than to an idiot ulgly half orc.
The dialogues of my idiot orc were some of the funniest things in my history of games.

I hope that BG3 has good combat AND story/characters/setting.
But IF I cannot have both, good story/characters is more importent to me than combat.


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MasterServo #665998 09/04/20 05:50 PM
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BG 1/2 is a better game overall BUT ToEE is a better D&D adaptation. My point on mentioning it, Madscientist is that a CRPG CAN adapt with a faithful degree, the P&P rules. ToEE is a more hack & slash module. Baldur's Gate being faithful as ToEE was would be the perfect game in every aspect.

But if Larian wanna maintain lv cap = 10 and throw nasty mindflayers, they will need to nerf those monsters

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 09/04/20 05:52 PM.
MasterServo #666000 09/04/20 06:11 PM
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Neverwinter nights and IWD2 also made a good videogame without making a perfect representation, but you recognize D&D and get the feel of playing. Pathfinder Kingmaker also did it well. Also VTM: bloodlines made a great and very fun game also implementing VTM ruleset to a videogame, It was not perfect, but it was a great videogame with a great story and a cool world to explore.

I think the worst games based in tabletop games are the ones that do not even try, like Sword coast legends and the like; at least that was what happened in the past years.

MasterServo #666002 09/04/20 06:19 PM
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Quote
Neverwinter nights and IWD2 also made a good videogame without making a perfect representation, but you recognize D&D and get the feel of playing. Pathfinder Kingmaker also did it well.


Well, this games aren't perfect; pale masters, necromancer specialized wizards, arcane archers and rangers(one of the weakest 3.5e class) are useless in this game due they not following the rules. Warlocks on nwn2 and arcane casters too. Spell fixes are a mandatory mod for anyone who wanna play as a arcane caster on nwn2.

Pathfinder Kingmaker has broken sneak attack(not following the rules) and i saw some guys doing more than 1k damage with arcane trickster and bows with multiple damage sources can be broken and the lack of range for certain spells means that amazing P&P spells like Horrid Wilting can't be used without expensive metamagic rods that allow you to hit enemies without destroying your own party.

To be fair, some deviations from rules can be good; dragon disciples on BG/BG2:EE who doesn't exist on core rules are a fun class to play. But those who doesn't wanna, can just don't select the SUB-class. I an all for OPTIONAL rule alterations but less non optional deviations means a better overall game.

Last edited by SorcererVictor; 09/04/20 06:21 PM.
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