Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Please implement alignment in some form.

I am soooo very sorry to make you discuss something on the internet, especially about a topic as important as this one. But for all your reluctance to reply you've put forth a truly impressive treatise. It's well written, thoughtful and clever -- it's everything but correct.

I don't think you can use alignment to understand the actions of real world people. The alignment girds people came up for Game of Thrones really demonstrated the shortcomings of the system. This is where I think we differ: You prefer when moral decisions in video games have the same complexities of moral decisions in real life. If I do horrible thing X but do it for a good reasons are my actions 'good'? Is the virtue of thing inherent in the act or the intent? Is 'goodness' about commitment to duty or proper application of a moral calculus? Other ways of thinking seem cartoonishly simple. But I like the cartoon, I like the D&D fantasy because it has elements that are not present in life.



Faerun's evil lords are not like the wall street banksters who cut off health insurance during a crisis. The bankster would tell you that without him the employees would have nothing at all and by pursing his individual interest he is serving the public interest. His actions, in long run, are a good because they create employment and give us products and services. Lord Darkheart is different -- he wants to stay in power, Shar will give him the power he needs to keep the serfs in line. Yes, by helping Shar he's bringing the world one step closer to destruction but he's not going to see that day and, besides, in Faerun you need to worship a god or you are transformed into brick in the afterlife. So why not Shar? She's more powerful that the others. These aren't things that real world political actors consider in their calculations.



Two things you lose when you substitute real world morality for fantasy morality. First, you lose the traditions that make a D&D game a D&D game and two, you lose the fantasy metaphysics that make fantasy games interesting. You are left with a simpler, two dimensional world. In D&D chaos is not acting crazy at party or making erratic life decisions (although a chaotic neutral character might do those things). Chaos is a metaphysical force.

If you are are in the plane of Limbo and you touch chaos your fingers will turn into tentacles, your fingernails into flowers and rabbits will make off with your pants. The Githzeri are an exception. They live a life of intense, monkish discipline so they can shape chaos. They can actually walk on top of the pure stuff of chaos by channeling the force of law. And this idea -- the two tribes of the Gith -- goes back to Gygax and his love of Moorcock. The realms of pure chaos are places of unbelievable beauty, creativity and of unspeakable atrocities. The realms of pure law are grey deserts where nothing is possible. The material world is the concrete expression of this cosmic battle. Oerth is middle ground and a battle ground between these forces and people aid one side or the other when they make decisions. Every lawful act strengthens the hand of law and moves us closer to a world without possibility, every chaotic act moves us closer to world without assurances.



The shadow weave was awesome and unfortunately gone from the world of 5th ed. Which is too bad because it's a great example, thanks for bringing it up. The shadow weave was a cancer on the weave. Every time someone accessed the shadow weave the blight on the weave grew and the shadow within the caster grew. Eventually the shadow weave caster would lose their ability to cast from the weave itself. Shar is both more complex and less so. Less complex because she is a demiurge, she is part of the primal force that gave birth to the world. She seeks to destroy because she is destruction. She wants to extinguish light because she is dark itself. She is like Darkness from the movie Legend. (dunno if you can post youtube so I'm holding off)

Which is to say that eeevol, the world of D&D is a corruption of the good. Which is what Tolkein believed and what D&D was based upon. Can you be a good orc in the world of middle earth? No. Orcs are elves that were corrupted by Morgoth. A good orc is an elf.

And yeah, people disagree with Tolkein's theology (and he was pretty explicit in saying it was theology). Again GRR Martin took aim at Tolkein: https://www.themarysue.com/aragorn-orc-genocide/

But in in Tolkein's world orc genocide is good. Evil is a corrupting force in the world and the elimination of that corruption is a good act. It's like cleaning up the world's spiritual pollution.

Of course this conflicts with your view and my view of what is good in real world. But nearly everything my murder hobo avatars do conflicts with my view of what is good in the real world. If I see someone walking around with a big back back and half a dozen weapons on their belt I'm calling the cops.

We have plenty of games without alignment -- Witcher, DOS2, PoE. They're fine but they aren't Baldurs Gate.

D&D is about alignment and alignment was a major part of the BG plot. Can you resist the evil inside? You, the Bhaalspawn, have an evil force inside of you, if you use it you become more powerful but you will eventually lose yourself. That's the plot, it makes much less sense if evil isn't a thing that sticks to souls.




You could just agree with me and the argument would be settled. Just sayin'




Hard to argue with that. But I would say that it's pretty hard to distinguish annoyance from interest Something about this topic captures your interest and makes your fingers move so quickly.