Originally Posted by Xvim
I think my problem with D&D 3.5 / Pathfinder (at least 1st, I haven't played Pathfinder 2nd) is that you build your entire character at creation. There is no real space for character development based on choices and situations in the story unless your GM allows you to rebuild your character from the ground up. This is less of a problem in a video game, but I find it a shortcoming for Tabletop.

D&D 3.5 had this a bit due to all of the requirements of prestige classes and feats. Pathfinder just turned that up to 11. It felt less like you had more choices and more that you had more illusion of choice.


I have the exact opposite feeling of those game rulesets if we are talking only of character development.

(To simplify, I´m going to compare non-multiclass builds)

In 5e you choose your class at the start. You have The 13 base classes ( Artificer, Cleric, druid, bard, sorcerer, wizard, rogue, fighter, ranger, paladin, monk, barbarian, warlock) plus the two from beyond the pale (blood hunter and gunslinger) and some homebrew you made.

Then you pick your subclass at level 1-2-3 and then the only thing you have to choose in the next 17 levels is if you want an ability upgrade (with a limit of 20) OR a feat, every 4 levels (or less if you are a fighter). The class features are fixed, your languages are mostly fixed, your skills are chosen at the start because they improve automatically, you do not get to choose what skill do you want to improve or learn new skills unless you are a thief or bard (every 6 levels).
Unless you are a spellcaster and you have to learn new spells there´s nothing else to choose when you level up because subclasses´ features have no options to choose from, they are fixed.



In Pathfinder you choose your class at the start. You have more base classes to choose, even if you do not count hybrid classes as new classes (which I do myself and anyone that played PF, but for the sake of discussion we will say they are not "pure" classes ┐(´~`)┌ )
You have the same 12 (Cleric, druid, bard, sorcerer, wizard, rogue, fighter, ranger, paladin, monk, barbarian, gunslinger) plus 8 more (Oracle, Alchemist, Witch, Summoner, Inquisitor, magus, cavalier, swashbuckler) 6 more of the occult book (kineticist, medium, mesmerist, psychic, occultist, spiritualist) and all the 20 hybrid classes ( Hunter, Arcanist, shaman, Investigator, Ninja, samurai, brawler, bloodrager, warpriest, Omdura, Vampire hunter, etc) and all the homebrew classes/subclasses.

Then you can choose an ability to upgrade every few levels (no limits) AND a feat every few levels(unlike 5e you have +50feats to choose, some of them are class or race-related), then you can choose your subclass if you want to (its called archetype, and you can choose it not at the start, but when you level up. Also in tabletop you can choose two archetypes if they are compatible).
You choose your traits (similar to the backgrounds, but you can choose one or 2 positive traits plus one drawback-penalty if you are using the variant ruleset)
You can also choose what skills you want when you level up and learn new skills, they do not level up automatically like in 5e. It depends on your INT so you also do not have a set number of ranks you can learn, you will have more skill points the higher your intelligence.
You can learn new languages after character creation using the linguistics skill, not only in downtime if your DM allows it.
If your class is a favored class of your race, you get to choose a new ability, +1 skill or +1 hp.
If you have a permanent pet like an animal companion, mount or Eidolon you get to level it up yourself, choosing stats, skills, etc. You can even choose archetypes for your animal companions too if the DM allows those books.

In my experience, I found that when you roll a barbarian berserker with the same background, for example, you have the (almost) exact set of abilities at level 20 as any other LVL 20 barbarians with the same background and basically you will play it the same way(maybe you can choose what weapons you use but that´s it). In PF you can make a melee powerhouse, a ranged fighter, a raging pugilist, a beastmaster fighting with his animal companion, an expert rider marauder, etc with the same level 1 barbarian character.

And if we are talking multiclass, you have the multiclass rules, the same as 5e AND also the prestige classes. Same in 3.5. You also have more base classes from start to choose from, for starters.


So, in my honest opinion, 5e its fine to play and its fun, but I think the illusion of choice it´s in 5e. When you choose your subclass it´s auto-level up the next 17 levels besides choosing your stat improvement(and choosing your spells for spellcasters, yes, but that´s the same for any game ruleset).

You can mess up your character in 3.5 and PF; yes, but because you have open choices, they do not railroad your character from level 3 to 20 (Not that it matters that much if you are playing a roleplaying tabletop, flawed characters are fun to roleplay, but I suppose it matters more in a videogame. That´s why you have respec options) This is great when you start playing or if you are playing short adventures but it gets old fast when you are a veteran with several years of experience or playing large campaigns.




Last edited by _Vic_; 03/05/20 02:50 PM.