Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Why not raise the lv cap to at least 13?

I know people get very defensive when anybody says something about D&D5e but I played several PNP game systems so I can compare.
D&D puts his focus on roleplaying, indeed, but I think it`s often criticized for his lack of actual options in combat in comparison with other similar game systems. People get really emotional so I will try to put bare facts here.



Ok. No. I think the only reason you said that it´s because you do not know better game systems.

First of all, Persuade, intimidate, etc have roleplaying effects in combat determined by the DM in PNP games like Pathfinder as in 5e ( I mean they are RPG games too) but ALSO have mechanics that you can actually use in combat, like demoralize, feint, coerce, fascinate, etc.

I am going to use the typical warrior/fighter/etc types for simplification and because that role is in all the fantasy games. I will also put a few examples of basic classes and subclasses, and before anyone reply that "yeah, but that particular subclass or obscure recently UA subclass or multiclass character can do XYZ and can use some spells!" but I can assure you that for every 1 example you give me for 5e I can give you 10 examples of subclasses and multiclass characters in the other game systems that do many things too and can also use a lot of spells and unlimited cantrips.

All characters in all those games could use magic items they have or pick potions, fire flasks, and stuff from the inventory so that they would not be included in the comparisons.

So, we´re in combat, It´s your turn and your warrior can act. Let´s see what can I do and what tactical moves I have:

• 5E
  I´m a Fighter so I´m going to move and ATTACK. I´m level 11 so I´m going to ATTACK Twice or thrice. Maybe have a subclass or feature that allows me to add more damage to my ATTACK, like arcane archer that allows me to add elemental damage to my ATTACK or some special feats that I have to learn like charge that allows me to ATTACK from afar.
  Maybe I´m a barbarian or a paladin so I can use my class features like rage or smite evil that basically allows me to add more damage to my ATTACKS.
  I could also be a ranger, so I can mark my target and adding 1d6 damage to my ATTACK. Maybe I´m a hunter so I can ATTACK several targets too if I picked that feature.
  There are some combat maneuvers I can use instead of your ATTACK. Well, two combat maneouvers : Grappling an enemy, holding it in place, and SHOVE the enemy ¡5 entire feet! or knocking him into the ground.
  And then you can wait to swing the enemy with a AoO if it´s dumb enough to try to move nearby or maybe protect an ally of an attack with your shield IF you picked that specific feature and none of the other ones (because for some reason you could only have one combat style ever unless you multiclass) and have a shield.

• Pathfinder 2e
  
  I´m a warrior so I could move and ATTACK too, but since I´m trained in martial arts and knowledgeable in tactics and warfare, maybe I can do something else too:
  
  This enemy seems too good at dodging, so maybe I could use a FEINT to caught him unaware and lower his defenses against the next strikes for this round or several rounds if I critically suceed.
  
  I´m pretty intimidating so maybe I can use a fierce battlecry that demoralize de opponents, lowering his skills and saves so my fellow casters could take them out easily.
  
  I will try to move to position myself on the battlefield so I and my allies will flank the enemy, giving us combat bonuses against him (Unlike PF1&2 5e flanking is optional and many GMs do not use it because they feel that the bonuses it gives are "gamebreaking").
  
  I could also try to Grapple or TRIP the enemy, pushing him or knocking him down to get some combat bonuses against prone enemies(But unlike 5e, the enemy need to use an entire action to get up, in 5e they only lose half his movement, so it could get up, attack and move half his movement in its turn so it´s merely situational).
  
  My adversary is a skilled swordsman with a deadly weapon, so I´m going to try to DISARM it, knocking his weapon to the ground. Then I´m going to SHOVE him 5ft in the same turn. Unlike 5e you could automatically move to occupy the space after shoving an enemy, so I will move and place my foot over the weapon so it cannot even recover it while I´m here.
  An enemy is attacking my ally, so I will try a reposition maneuver, forcing him to swap positions with me and putting myself between it and my squishy party member.
  
  I´m the first line of defense, so after the ATTACK I am going to raise my shield and brace myself to BLOCK one strike against me in the enemy´s turn.
  
  I´m a ranger, so I will use my hunter´s prey to mark the enemy and unleash a volley of ATTACKS against him or making extra damage. But since I´m a veteran skirmisher I have some options too.
  My scout skills will allow me to give an initiative advantage to my all allies due to my heightened senses. I could study the enemy to assess his vulnerabilities and allow us to hit it where it hurts.
  I could make a PINNING shot, pinning the enemy in place.
  After that, I will order my faithful beast companion to bite the enemies down (In 5e you forfeit your attack action to allow your animal companion to attack, in PF2e both you and your companion can attack in the same turn. Your companion also level-up with you, increasing size, stats, etc) and will use our teamwork strikes to give debuffs to the enemies we attack.
  If I´m particularly bloodlust I will mount my faithful companion and we will both charge into melee to overrun the enemies with combined strikes.
  I could craft and use traps in the battlefield, giving unaware enemies some nasty surprises.
  
  Then I will be ready to use AoO to enemies that move nearby, or protect an adjacent ally with my shield, clock with my shield, dodge and retaliate, or if I´m a champion use my reactions to protect and use divine punishment in the enemies that attack my allies. If I´m a ranger I could make AoO with my ranged weapons too.

• TDE
  
  I´m a warrior or an amazon, so I will move and ATTACK. but I´m also trained in combat so I will study the battlefield and will try to pick the perfect strategy.
  I will use my offensive stances to smash the enemies or my defensive stances or bladewall if I´m surrounded. Maybe rage if i have the feature.
  My fencing moves depend on the weapons I´m wielding and my training, but I will just list what can I do to the enemies.
  Using my brute force I could knock down the enemies, dealing a Mighty blow, trip them, make a wrath strike so strong that the enemy is pushed.
  I could use feints to confuse the enemies and lower his defenses against my strikes
  If I´m surrounded I´ll just make a roundhouse blow, sweeping my blade against all the enemies around me.
  I could use my finesse to make several strikes in a row or using mortal blows or lunge towards the enemies to deal bleeding wounds, knowing that four wounds in a living enemy will kill it.
  I could use a precise shot or throw to improve my aiming and pierce their defenses, or unleash a rain of iron or arrows to the enemies.
  Then I will get ready for the enemy´s retaliation using master parry, windmill, etc.

And before you say anything I know I D&D5e you can roleplay that you can intimidate the enemies, make a bungee jump attack with a vine too but I will have to give you some news: Games like PF, TDE, Vampire, etc are ROLEPLAYING games, so you can actually say that you kick a table against the enemy, kick a table to cover behind, throw an arrow to the candlelamp so it can fall over the enemies, surprise the enemies to bang one heard against each other... like in any RPG game ever existing. If you are playing Vampire, TDE, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, Just ask your GM and possibly he´s going to laugh and say "You can certainly try". You do not really need to "roll a d20 for a creativity check and you can do something".
But in other games, you can roleplay your actions in combat and ALSO you get to make all those combat moves above. Those are legal moves, so the DM cannot refuse unless he has some reason, if you try to roleplay the DM could just say "no, you cannot do that".

I really cannot fathom why people just assume 5e is the first TRPG game ever made that allows roleplaying. It was always there: it's in the name. Even in 3.5.

If it never happened to you, you just were very unlucky with your GM and party members, because nothing in the rules of games like Vampire, TDE, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, etc forbids that.
And I can assure you that many 5e games played online, mostly text-based discord games are just number-crunching combat and skill checks, with the Avrae bot making all the combat rolls. If you take a look at the campaign log it´s like an excel spreadsheet. So the problem is not necessarily in the game system.

If you really want real story-focused, heavy-roleplaying games, with less dice-throwing you could try Anima, World of Darkness games (Vampire, Werewolf, channeling,...), Call of Cthulhu, etc.

My personal opinion is that creators of 5e tried to reach a middle ground between all of those games, which uses simplified rules to get a mix of dice-rolling, role-playing, and exploring. You can make good adventures with that but that puts a lot of work into the DMs and sometimes that simplicity is counterproductive in long campaigns if you are doing the same combo +30h because it´s all your character do. You know the saying: "Jack of all trades, master of none".

No-one said you cannot have fun playing 5e, it´s just a mechanics/rules comparison between game systems. I mean, people play extensively mobile games like Fate or Candy crush and they are fun, but no one can deny the mechanics are also very simple and requires fewer tactics than other videogames.




Uh, Nobody said anything about Critical role in this thread. Moreso, only a few posts talk about them in this forum in months, and many of them are your posts or posts quoting you. (just make a search with the words "Critical Role" in it)
http://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php
It would be great if you do not bring grudges from other forums to this thread.

I´m more an Acquisitions Incorporated guy if I want to see some streaming but the things I watched of Matt Mercer show he is a very knowledgeable DM. That said, D&D5e is more than streamers and YouTubers.