You might want to dig into archaeology and look at the many women warriors buried in regalia or dug out ice with an arrow through the heart and a sack of herbs on her hip. Women and men fought to survive for tens of thousands of years before we got medieval. I love that DOS2 never followed conventional gender roles and never felt overtly political. I did not notice the Magister was pleading for her wife's life in Arx when you get past the gate. Maybe you were sarcastic but a game where female characters were only in skirts and raising kids it sounds terribly boring. Girls kick ass.
Last edited by lightzall; 18/06/2002:17 AM.
No other game has rewarded my low impulse control with so many glorious unintended consequences.
You might want to dig into archaeology and look at the many women warriors buried in regalia or dug out ice with an arrow through the heart and a sack of herbs on her hip. Women and men fought to survive for tens of thousands of years before we got medieval. I love that DOS2 never followed conventional gender roles and never felt overtly political. I did not notice the Magister was pleading for her wife's life in Arx when you get past the gate. Maybe you were sarcastic but a game where female characters were only in skirts and raising kids it sounds terribly boring. Girls kick ass.
That is kind of a mischaracterization of what roles women have had historically as well.
Women helped run the shops, they sewed the clothes, which could take just as long as the men in the fields, and even cooking was dangerous because it was so easy for their dresses to catch fire near an oven.
Women weren't confined to the kitchen and the house simply because they were perceived as weaker, nor were they even confined to the kitchen or house. They were provided for and protected and women were able to step up and help their husbands in their husband's profession by taking on responsibilities their husbands and sons couldn't.
Forging a sword was a lot of work and if a blacksmith had to get it done for a Lord while also shoeing horses, making nails and tools for other members of the community then they simply didn't have the time to do other things like take some of their wares to market when possible, purchase charcoal or even go buy or make clothes.
Everyone had responsibilities because everyone was needed. Men and women simply had different responsibilities.
"I used my last magic poo to check in on my daughter." Scanlan Shorthalt.
Of course I was being sarcastic In some of my other posts I gave examples of (imaginary) women who did kick ass and I even used the phrase "kick ass". Yes, a game with traditional gender norms sounds like a snore.
Sure. Viking shield maidens (although they weren't entirely equal) are good example that lasted well into the medieval period. But the Romans crushed the matriarchies and gender equal societies in Europe and much of the medieval period is really the fall out from Roman rule. Take Boudica's rebellion. A the time of Boudica the Romans were saying whatever -- you guys rule as you like, you don't have to follow Roman law. Tell us who your leaders are and we'll treat them as allies. But the one thing the Romans couldn't deal with was woman leader. Her husband, sure. But there was no way the Romans were going to accept a woman inheriting her husband's property and position. That's why she and her daughters had to be publicly shamed.
Boudica kicked ass. But the patriarchy won. And the empire became the church and Roman law became papal law and we have patriarchal, medieval Europe. Hell take a look at what happened to Joan of Arc after she won the war for the church. The church wasn't going to accept a woman as a spiritual and military leader.
My point is that we are all used to gender equality in games so it's invisible to us. No one seriously asks why a woman is a warrior or priest even though that would have been impossible in a truly medieval setting. So why does it makes sense to say that medieval Monrovia was entirely white but not to ask why the game has strong women characters? And @sordak has helpfully and honestly said that gender equality interferes with his immersion. As does bisexuality. So we are seeing what a truly "non political" game would look like. Traditional gender norms and normative heterosexuality. Which makes my point that "non political" is really a political stance in disguise.
And again, were this 1960 DOS2 would not have felt non political (and it still doesn't to some). Take a look at how women were portrayed in early fantasy works:
@volmetia -- great story about finding you have an epicanthic fold!
@_vic_ good point about the assumption that evolution even works in Faerun. WotC has repeatedly said the laws of physics don't apply to Faerun so why evolution? For all we know humans are an experiment of the creator races. I probably should have gone there myself but I was overly influenced by the memory that evolution did operate in 1st edition
Not only evolution as IRL, in the world of Abeir-toril not only gods and the Creator races, but there are Scholars and beings that literally created new intelligent races: Githyanki, warforged, duergar, gnolls, etc. Add to that the fact that some elves with the blessing of Corellon could change his biological gender when they´re bored and that´s canon in D&D. And of course...
Originally Posted by _Vic_
If we´re still talking about D&D I have to point out that unlike the Tel-quessir could claim the primal war between Corellon and Gruumsh for their heritage and the dwarves claimed to have been forged from the rocks of Abeir-Toril itself, humans had no unifying creation myth. In fact is one of the few races that exist having originated since before written records existed and were frequently considered one of the creator races, and humans are found in almost every world in Abeir-Toril, and many other planes of existence like the Demiplanes of Dread in Ravenloft. It is canon that the humans in Thay or Mulhorand were first brought to Toril through portals to another world created by wizard rulers of the Imaskar Empire so they also exist in other worlds outside Toril. So the "it makes no sense that a Human population that appears to be very sedentary and not very well mixed in universe appears heavily racially mixed" could be applied to other worlds but not in D&D. Humans, unlike most other races, did not emerge as a whole but rather in several places at once, coming from elsewhere, thereby resulting in its diversity.
Sc: ↑ Reynolds, Forbeck, Jacobs, Boyd (March 2003). Races of Faerûn. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 80. ISBN 0-7869-2875-1. ↑ Brian R. James and Ed Greenwood (September, 2007). The Grand History of the Realms. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 5, 6. ISBN 978-0-7869-4731-7. ↑ Rob Heinsoo, Andy Collins, James Wyatt (June 2008). Player's Handbook 4th edition. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 46. ISBN 0-7869-4867-1.
As stated before, in a world that a spell could turn you into a woman or where you have Dragonborn, half-orcs, elves or Goliaths a human with more slainted eyes and dark hair or different pigmentation in his skin is not that big of a deal when you are talking with catmen and avian people daily.
D&D may look like a medieval setting, but it´s not a medieval Europe or medieval Asia, It´s a very different fantasy world with different rules, so I do not think the rules of society, ethics and beliefs of the Earth´s dark ages could apply and if you´re expecting to find yourself in an environment akin to the British-dark-ages War of the roses or colonial south-America in D&D in a world so alien to our earth would not make much sense.
In fact, reaching a city full of caucasian humans with weapons and tools made only of steel and bronze, no magic, without women in the army, a church praying to a one and only god, a ghetto full of jew or dark-skinned humans; the only animals on sight are in sight dogs, horses and cats,... That would break my immersion because that does not sound like any city of any setting of D&D that I know of.
Maybe you can find more points in common in worlds like the one of the Witcher, Song of ice and fire, World of Darkness, etc but right now D&D is a high fantasy setting with little in common with our reality.
In fact, reaching a city full of caucasian humans with weapons and tools made only of steel and bronze, no magic, without women in the army, a church praying to a one and only god, a ghetto full of jew or dark-skinned humans; the only animals on sight are in sight dogs, horses and cats,... That would break my immersion because that does not sound like any city of any setting of D&D that I know of.
I strongly agree BUT D&D is high fantasy setting. And you have matriarchal societies like Drow, have lawful evil societies like Thay have chaotic neutral societies like on Icewind Dale and so on. Having a heterogeneous population in a empire which trades a lot of salves all around the world like Thay makes perfectly sense. But the humans red wizards of Thay will be on top of that society. If i an for eg in a Drow city, i wanna see over 98% of free people being Drow and if you are not one, people asking "where is your master" or something similar.
And note that if you look to lower fantasy settings like for eg, Conan(low magic) and Gothic 1/2/3(mid magic), things tends to be more close to real world, but still different IE - magic is more than just a unproved myth that some people believe. You don't start Gothic with magic, magic is strongly linked with religious orders and you can only learn magic by finding someone able and willing to teach you. On G2, most novices spend years and never become a Fire magician. Water mages seems magic more like part of nature but they don't teach their secrets to anyone and most Dark Magicians are mind controlled by evil entities. You don't see woman priestesses of religion or woman paladins on G1/G2/G3. In fact, woman is send to the penal colony on G1 as a just a product to be traded with the ore barons taht took the control over the colony.
On Conan, magic is non mundane. Thot Amon for eg, looks very like a Warlock IMO which learns his magic with dangerous pacts with a otherworldly being. Berserk Manga for eg, was very "historical inspired" during the golden arc, where the manga is less magical and after the eclipse, become a mid to high magical setting, with elementals, dragons, fantasy races, including elves and so on and thus, nobility, religion and other things are explored in a completely different way, a Berserk guy with a personification of his rage, cyborg hand with a cannon implanted, magic sword, automatic crossbow, bombs and a magical armor which can heals and remove all human limitations . On The Call of Cthulhu, magic is not just a otherworldly thing. Is a complete ALIEN thing which no human mind can comprehend. If you use too much magic, you will probably become a crazy cultist or end up in a "bughouse".
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So in general, more high fantasy, the setting is, more dissociated from the real world, the setting will gonna be. Some people here seems to enjoy more low fantasy and i honestly don't know why play a D&D game if they only enjoy low fantasy settings.
D&D is a game where you can have a magical space ship with a drow, a tiefling, a half dragon and a succubus delivering goods from one planet to another while fight mindflayers to protect the cargo(spelljammer). Where you have Archwizards ruling over floating cities(Netheril) and so on.
>women warriors you mean the one that turned out to be a man? im not even disputing that there were any at all. but there damn well werent alot of them. The most credible source beeing scythians.
point is, for a medieval european setting theyd be an outlier >boudica kicked ass maybe. She was a leader, we know as much.
>non political is political in disguise only if you ascribe politics to other people. Turns out not everyone is a raging ideologue.
Especialy when it comes to Kingdom Come which was supposed to be historically accurate.
>Evolution in Faerun Humans come from earth. Literaly. Forgotten Realms lore is stupid.
What it comes down to Killer Rabbit is that you accuse everyone else of beeing as political as you are. Even if that were the case, you basically run out of arguments in favor of your position.
If everything is political. Then why would i accept yours? Why would i not favor mine? You basically just admitted my entire concern with this topic. You just bring up the excuse of "Everything is political", which ok, just strengthens my point that Californian Politics should probably stay out of this bloody game. Especialy consdiering the ongoing Trainwreck that is the Last of us 2, just proving yet again that these politics make for bad storytelling.
>FR is a high fantasy setting yes. And some things suspend the disbelief more than others. A Dragon is less realistic than an Apache attack helicopter. Yet one of them is at home in a quasi medieval fantasy setting , one isnt.
Even though I really don't like politics in my games, This threads has become a political discussion.
One thing that should be kept in mind is, this IP is owned by People with Californian Politics. So if the Ower's wishes to change things about how this game reflects the changes they are making to the IP, then it is probably going to be in the game.
yeah like they recently decided that they need to make a post about "tackling the racism in the depiction of orcs and drow"
bruh.
if you look at a society of warlike chaotic evil apes and a society of backstabbing murderers that only gets held together by a megalomaniac god playing dark elf fortress and think "Yeah, that reminds me of Black people", then maybe the problem lis with you, not your players.
yeah like they recently decided that they need to make a post about "tackling the racism in the depiction of orcs and drow"
bruh.
if you look at a society of warlike chaotic evil apes and a society of backstabbing murderers that only gets held together by a megalomaniac god playing dark elf fortress and think "Yeah, that reminds me of Black people", then maybe the problem lis with you, not your players.
Word. Especially when you consider that, in D&D, those are 2 of the most racist races in all Faerun.
yeah like they recently decided that they need to make a post about "tackling the racism in the depiction of orcs and drow"
bruh.
if you look at a society of warlike chaotic evil apes and a society of backstabbing murderers that only gets held together by a megalomaniac god playing dark elf fortress and think "Yeah, that reminds me of Black people", then maybe the problem lis with you, not your players.
You've got to be kidding me. They're going to tackle the racism of creatures that don't even exist? The timing and response of this coinciding with what's going on right now is even worse. They're literally comparing, on some level, Black people with Orcs. What's worse is DnD allows for Black humans, so this comparison shouldn't even exist. I feel like they should, I dunno, adhere to the lore and politics of the FANTASY world instead of injecting real world politics into it. This doesn't even reflect well on them either. This is more akin to fake outrage and pandering as though, "We're allies too, buy our product" than actually doing something to combat real world injustices.
I'll wait to see the route Larian takes, but I sincerely hope they don't intend on equivocating what's going on right now with the portrayal of fantasy races that exist in a war-based society and grow up as a product of that society.
In some of my other posts I gave examples of (imaginary) women who did kick ass and I even used the phrase "kick ass". Yes, a game with traditional gender norms sounds like a snore.
