Originally Posted by _Vic_
I do not know if it´s really that surreal and unrealistic.

I mean, the entire Inca´s religious beliefs were based on human sacrifices of the lower caste. They even have the Capacocha, where even noble families sacrifice his children because they were the best and pure.

The Karankawa and the Aztecs were known to practice cannibalism: warriors would eat a strip of flesh from enemies they had slain in combat. That was a symbol of status.

I'm just going to ignore these particular examples, since I just don't know enough about these cultures, but...

Originally Posted by _Vic_
Nazi´s dream was the glorification of the pure Arian race and purge the other races and minorities. With gas chambers. In bulk.

Here is the issue, bad/evil system doesn't make all the people living under it evil. Yes, the leaders are unquestionably dreadful, and the system they've built is equally so, but people who have grown up under it, or were swept up because they already lived in the areas are not necessarily. Through many tactics they can be driven into complacency, apathy, or support (whether that's through dehumanisation of the opponents, weaponising nostalgia or other ways, I'm not going to be summing up Ur-Fascism here), but that doesn't make them evil. It's why the goal against them wasn't to kill them all, but to dismantle the state and show the people living under it that it's not the only way.

This is opposed to always-evil races, where you have the, annoyingly common situation of 'will you kill the orc baby because you know it will grow up to be violent and dangerous regardless of where they grow up'.

Originally Posted by _Vic_
It´s not so strange the existence of entire civilizations that has "evil" practices that are tolerated and even encouraged by their society or social group in the real world.
It would be weird if there is not in a fantasy world.

You do not even have to search much about their motivations: The ethical and moral values of their society are what could be considered "Evil" by the standards of most other communities.

The Drow are much closer to what you describe as an evil society, however, I have an issue even with that, because I have a hard time seeing a society built on making everyone as miserable as possible survive long term without frequent revolutions, without everyone being inherently evil and predisposed to violence.

Originally Posted by Sordak
For some reason Game of Thrones is ofthen cited as an example of fantasy dealing with "grey moraliy", when thats complete nonsense. But game of tThrones is a great example of how to use "always chaotic evil".
The white walker sin game of thrones ar ethat. Enemy of all life.

Does that make them lazy?
Or racist?
No. They are an analogy. The white walkers are an analogy for Climate Change.
The Threat of the white walkers is there to make a point about the Human rulers not working together and not beeing able to face the threat.

Only fighting Climate change with Swords and arrows makes for a supremeley better book than fighting it with lessening carbon emissions.

I mean, I haven't done extensive opinion research, but I don't think you are going to find many people claiming that the undead invasion part of the Song of Ice and Fire is the most interesting part of the series.

Problem with this analogy however is, that unlike the always evil races of Dungeons and Dragons, the rank and file of the undead army in ASoIaF aren't sentient, no idea about their leader person, I haven't seen the series. So they are less evil people, and more force of nature that has shape of people.

Meanwhile, orcs are sentient, but evil for reasons (and in case of DnD, less intelligent for reasons that smell of eugenics)

...not to mention imagining you can defeat climate change with swords is so unhelpful I can't even begin putting it in words.

Originally Posted by Sordak
Do you understand where im getting here?
The Orcs are Evil because the Orcs do not represent Humans. The Orcs represent a savage existential threat and the fear of Savagery overcoming civility in Human minds.
They are the shadow on the wall of the primeval cave. Not neccesarily orcs but all kinds of Eivl creatures.


You can say that, but in most cases they are not written that way, they might not be literally human, but they are human-like, highlight parts of human behaviour that is arbitrarily assigned to other exaggerated human traits, and my favourite (/s), fantasy racism often manifests much like real world racism, except the receiver being evil gives a 'justification' for it. I'm not saying that these problems have been written in out of malice, or are intentional, rather, they exist because of cultures and systems we live in
Media is influenced by real world sentiments, and real world sentiments influence media. It's not going to turn a friendly kid into a horrific racist, and it's very much not intended to in most cases, but there are subtle effects on reinforcing stereotypes and uncomfortable behaviours, despite it not being 1 to 1 comparison in most cases.

And even the OG, Tolkien, eventually grew to regret how he wrote the orcs.

In any case, I doubt I am going to convince you, and I'm not one you should ask about these things, I'm just some weirdo on the internet who has acquired an interest in effects of culture on media and vice versa in recent years. You would get a much better account of how one affects another, from someone who actively studies this, preferably who has been directly affected too.

...I'm just going to hit post in hopes that this ramble is at least somewhat coherent.

Edit:
I'm going to borrow words from the one who wrote the one who came up with Drizzt...
"In fantasy, you embody evil in a race, and then you disembody it with your sword, and that’s also what mankind has done through the centuries, right? By dehumanizing the enemy so you don’t feel bad about killing them. But that’s just blatantly immoral when you get right down to it, and yet I love fantasy. So that’s the paradox I had to deal with."

Last edited by Valerie; 27/06/20 10:24 PM.