Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General BG3, DOS and the D&D rule-set

And you look like someone who doesn't have much to say, other than being insulting.

Iterating and refining an idea are a great way to progress it. It seems like larian have chosen not to mess with a formula that they feel worked well and are focusing on scale. More characters, more dialogue options, more choices, more outcomes. I think this is a fantastic use of their resources and talents.

I get your point, I just don't think it's such a big deal that it's something I should care about and then listed the things I care about more.

BG3 is being made from the same engine of DOS2 and is being heavily modified for BG3. Until all the kinks are worked out it makes sense that a lot of the animations, assets and other things will be similar or the same as DOS2.

I'm just not judging those things until we get closer to final release. DOS2 looked VERY different going into EA than it does now, after it left it.

Thats an interesting critique of Pillars and is probably one reason why I like it alot more than Pillars 2. You are just a normie travelling down the road and you piece by piece discover more things about yourself. The fact that there is no clear goal is to the strenght of the game, not detriment. There is a mystery and you are aware there is a bigger picture but you dont care because you're having so much fun exploring the world. Its probably why BG1 resonates so well with me too. The prologue is basically: "myserious bad guy wants to get you" and what do you do with this information? Fuck man, just go east and talk some friends of your father, perhaps go into the woods to the south? Dunno, there is some troubles with kobolds in the mine to the south maybe you want to check that out.

The story reveals the importance of the main character piece by piece. You can probably ignore 95% of the content in BG1 and still complete the game. Perfect storytelling for computer games in my opinion.

They already said in the livestream that a percentage of the DOS2 engine still remains in BG3, and that percentage is decreasing each day, presumably this includes assets. They are initially using old assets as EA placeholders so they can focus on the development of new systems, characters, quests, etc which need more EA testing time. This avoids the developer from having to focus on reinventing the wheel up front and later rush out an unpolished mechanic. Using older assets as place holders is considered standard practice in game studios.

Agreed 100% on all of this, its far more about the gameplay/D&D system and story than anything else. Additionally as it relates to DOS2 similarities, Dave Walgrave, Larian's exec producer, said in an interview anyway that they started out working to expand and add things to the engine that existed in DOS2, and: "There’s about 20-30% of the Original Sin engine left and we rewrote so many systems and so many things." (this was from an article back on February on geek.com).

The other significant point besides your underscoring of before/after EA changes and further development is that, even with what exists as-of-today, people are placing so much judgement on what little they've shown us thus far....which by all accounts is just the smallest slice possible of what's there to experience even in just Act one. Which, sure, I get that we can only judge on what we're given, but there's also a great deal we simply haven't been exposed to yet.

As far as art style goes, I don't really follow kanisatha's line of thought there....what I've seen of the revealed gameplay thus far seems fine to me. And while I know he stressed his perspective isn't based off a BG1/2 comparative, I can say for myself that I've seen nothing that troubles me about BG3's artstyle as someone who has played thorugh all of the original BG games multiple times and loves them. I'd be curious to see examples of what artstyle he's thinking of or would expect to be used for it to supposedly be. Otherwise, if he's just saying "I'd want this to look 100% different from anything in DOS2 just for the sake of being different", that's just more than a bit nitpicky at that point to me.

I generally agree that the approach PoE took to storytelling was great, I do love that it wasn't super linear and more about discovery and exploring the world to uncover what's happening, I just think that in the beginning that introduction could have been tighter. It drops you into theyou world, you lear you're going ot Gilded Vale and then suddenly you're left to wander the woods and can potentially come across your first sidequest in an area that's just a patch of woods. I'd probably have made it so the player goes straight from the tutorial area to Gilded Vale, just to tighten that up a bit. In general I'd have streamlined everything leading up to you discovering that you're a Watcher, then let everything continue as normal. I think that giving the player a bit more of a sense of purpose early on before openning things up would have made for a more cohesive beginning.

And bringing this back to BG3, the ending we're presented, where we start off having a clear, firm goal-escape the Mindflayers ship-and then being faced with the fullness of the world and our freedom to explore it after that, feels like it'll make for a stronger beginning.

I agree 100% about what you say here about Pillars 1, and this is one of the main reasons I love that game myself.

For me personally, the art style in the D:OS games, for whatever reason, felt like the equivalent of fingernails on a chalkboard. So that's why I don't like it. I don't care what the art style ends up looking like, just so long as it is not the D:OS art style. So I'm not saying I want a particular style; I'm saying I don't want this particular style and am okay with anything other than this one. Now is that nitpicking? I don't think so at all because for me it is something important, but if you think so then that's fine with me. I thought 90% of the criticisms leveled at the PoE games and P:Km were nitpicking, but that doesn't make them invalid. People are allowed to have things that bother them personally, even if those things don't bother too many other people. And on this particular issue I'm merely expressing my feelings, even though I have no expectation that Larian will care because I agree that it is probably not something very many other people care about so Larian won't see any need to care either.

No worries/no issues there kan, please continue expressing your thoughts feelings certainly. I of course had no way of knowing your history or where you were coming from going in either in regards to what you were saying about it and why. That said....as we're all individuals with different perspectives, I also have no way of really understanding what it is about the "DOS artstyle" that bothers you, even if you described it to me or us in detail, because let's be honest: 2 people can see the same building/tree/etc in the real world and have very different thoughts and opinions on that as well. But, I doubt whatever artstyle they're using is going to be something that changes in any major way in EA however of course.

I don't care that some of the UI stuff looks like it carries over from D:OS2, even during the EA. I'm sure it will get changed before the full release, and it's certainely not worth getting pissed over. I give the benefit of the doubt to Larian yet.

Funny, I remember following the developpement of POE from the beginning right until release and some of the last footage they showed, like a month from the full release, they were still using the spell icons and some UI items from Icewindale, like litterally. No one complained, yet it was copying another game...

As long as the graphics look good & its got the D&D vibe i'll be happy - i thought the armour & shields etc looked pretty good so far - I hope there are a few variables so your characters can mix it up a bit ..

That's a big topic. I personally always enjoyed the low key beginnings - even BG2 which has more of a dramatic intro comes to life once you are set free in Athkatla. It's more about living in the world, and interacting with stuff, then following an action packed story. I always thought PoE1 opening was really strong and game's later content had issues (as well as thick lore - I enjoyed PoE1 far more on 2nd and 3rd playthrugh, while one the first one I liked it alright, but lacked interest to see more of it). The gold standard for me as far as RPGs go is Fallout1 though. A relatable origins and hook, clear objective, a suggestion to go but not really a linear plot progresson. Also a rather low profile character - yes, we are "a saviour" of our vault (maybe) but it's a thankless, dangerous job, rather then a powerful chosen one journey.

I am somewhat reserved about the opening of BG3. Captured by mindflayers, going to hell and back... it does sound like the game is playing some strong cards from the very beginning, and I feel it might lessen the impact of seeing those kind of worlds later in the game. However, it also might be a clever way of teasing things to come early and make them treatening to show how much we have progressed, when we get to return later in the game.

It seems like UI is one of the last things to be worked on, once everything else is in place. Same was with PoE2, UI got final overhaul right before 1.0... and shockingly I found it to make the big difference. Currently, Phoenix Point is aparently to get a UI update next and I am looking forward to it - so far it felt very place-holder-y.

My main hope is that they make skill bar better then D:OS2. That's was one of the frustrations with D:OS2 but Kingmaker as well. Custom skill bars are all good, but I feel there must be a more functional default, like in IE games or Pillars. Something you can just take and play fairly efficently with every character. D:OS2 and Kingmaker require too much maintenance to be useful and with constant switching of skills, spells and items in both, it's a nightmare.

I think low key opennings can definitely be good, I just think they have to give the player a clear hook and direction. For example in Pathfinder: Kingmaker you start off as just another adventurer, but you have a clear purpose and goal right from the beginning before the game opens up and gives you complete freedom. PoE 1 on the other hand, it leaves you kidn of aimless for a while since you don't really have a clear understanding of what's happening to your character and why you should feel any urgency about it until after you've probably completed a bunch of side quests and explored the available areas.

Yhhh, it might be very much preference... but PoE1 opening was full of intriguing stuff - and objectives are there - get to town, consult watcher, etc. At no point is player left without a thread to follow. Your character was on the way to Gilded Vale with customisable reasons for it. Events happening on the road can be confusing but effective. Gilded Vale when reached aren’t what was promised and things start happening. Similarly BG1 it might create an illusion of being lost but game points players toward right direction in multiple ways and and lays foundation for further reveals most likely under player’s radar.

Agreed. At least in KM, you had the option to stop the skill/spell bar from filling itself everytime you got a new ability and altogether scraping all the work you had done. Can't remember if you could turn this off in D:OS2...

Yes, which helped me stayed sane, but didn't quite adress the issue for me. In D:OS2 all had to be adjusted if I lost/received new skill from items, gaingng/loosing requirements, or just unlocking new skills (hey, new healing skill. Lets move entire bar by one then). The game also needed function similar to the item bag mod - too bad mod messed with bartering. In Kingmaker everything goes to hell as soon as I have to change most of my spells to match a particular engagement - which happens fairly regularly.

There definitely now is an option in DOS2 that let’s you tailor what types of items / abilities get automatically added to your skill bar, but I don’t know if it was there from the start.

That was added either in late classic or along with Definitive Edition if I remember correctly. I know it wasn't there from the start, though. Memory is a bit fuzzy at this point!