I think the level 20 will come with the second game, since D&D is capped at 20. At least I hope so. I like games where you pick your character from the previous games, like BG2 or PoE2 =D
Well it depends. If this games takes you up to 14, leveling up only 6 times in the sequel might feel as if there isn’t enough of a progression curve for a full sequel. I could see 12 to 20 working, though.
You are assuming that will be a BG4. And I don't think that Larian wanna become a forgotten realms studio.
Why? You become too dependent of a third party. ToB was rushed due the 3e and licensing stuff.
They already said that they plan to make another BG game after this one ( except disaster happens)
My best guess is itll be based on spell level since they dont want level 9 magic due to some of it being world breaking or godlike so best guess is 10(if spell level ends at 5) 12 (if its ends a 6) 14(if it ends at 7) and 16 (if the spell level stops at 8th level)
Completely wrong. Godlike spells are above what even 3.5e epic magic can do. 3.5e epic magic is like spell lv 9.9 but still weaker than the Netherise 10/11th tier spells. Unless you are playing as a lv 25+ character in a Netherise campaign, you will not see one of then. And even then, require high cost and are rarely used. Tolodine's killing wind drains your own caster level but can slay an army. Saying that 5e 9th level spells are godlike is DOWNPLAYING gods... To become a lich, you need to be able to cast 9th tier spells and strike a deal with Orcus. Orcus still weaker than any deity.
Second because Casters can cast way less high level magic on 5e and most powerful 5e spells like wail of the banshee got removed. Stop Time is nowhere near powerful as on 2e.
I don't think that lv cap = 20 will gonna work. However, going to lv 11/12/13 will not give us the powerful spells.
The Vecna reborn module from 2e has you starting at lv 8 and the module said that the focus should't be to defeat Vecna as even a lv 20+ party will have almost no chance against Vecna... And note that Vecna is a DEMI power. Any lesser deity is far stronger.
Originally Posted by _Vic_
(...) They already said that they plan to make another BG game after this one ( except disaster happens)
I cited my source, 1E Dungeon Master's Guide. Here is some more information: Page 39, left side, under the title "Acquisition of Magic User Spells". That's enough for me, 6th level is a high level according to the great Gygax, who has played more hours of D&D than probably all of us put together. Does it make you wonder why would he make a statement like that? Could there be an underlying wisdom that Gygax gained from all those hours playing the game?
When I played ToB, I found the transition between level 20 and 21 to be much less consequential than, for example, between levels 5 and 6 (which we now know is a high level) in BG I. And the excitement between levels 27 and 28 was even less notable. I'd rather just start a new game, were it not for the story needing to conclude. I think Frodo Baggins ended up around 6th level or so when he returned to the Shire.
I cited my source, 1E Dungeon Master's Guide. Here is some more information: Page 39, left side, under the title "Acquisition of Magic User Spells". That's enough for me, 6th level is a high level according to the great Gygax, who has played more hours of D&D than probably all of us put together. Does it make you wonder why would he make a statement like that? Could there be an underlying wisdom that Gygax gained from all those hours playing the game?
When I played ToB, I found the transition between level 20 and 21 to be much less consequential than, for example, between levels 5 and 6 (which we now know is a high level) in BG I. And the excitement between levels 27 and 28 was even less notable. I'd rather just start a new game, were it not for the story needing to conclude. I think Frodo Baggins ended up around 6th level or so when he returned to the Shire.
Again, can you mention where he mention that a mage capable of casting a single fireball per day is "crazy high level"? Mainly cuz he took Vance's novel as inspiration and magicians in Vance novels are FAR from a guy which can cast few magic missiles, then a fireball and be worthless for the rest of the day...
I posted the domain of dread sourcebook direct line, here a lv 16 necromancer is just accomplished...
Come on, lv 6 high level? A lv 6 ranger can't even hunt a bear...
And you din't liked leveling ToB, but the most popular BG is BG2, which is most mid level(and when I mean mid level, I mean lv 7~15). Nobody would write modules like throne of bloodstone nor rules for epic level if D&D was meant to be kobold slaying in sword coast...
Come on, lv 6 high level? A lv 6 ranger can't even hunt a bear...
And you din't liked leveling ToB, but the most popular BG is BG2, which is most mid level(and when I mean mid level, I mean lv 7~15). Nobody would write modules like throne of bloodstone nor rules for epic level if D&D was meant to be kobold slaying in sword coast...
Huh? A level 6 ranger could easily dispatch a bear. Even a polar bear only has 12 AC and 40 some health.
BG2: SoA is popular, Throne of Bhaal is quite possibly the worst received of the entire bunch, even including IWD2.
I checked the Dungeon Master’s Guide. It’s actually:
1 - 4: local heroes 5 - 10 - heroes of the realm 11 - 16 - masters of the realm 17 - 20 - masters of the world
Heroes of the realm is described as:
By the time they reach this tier, adventurers have mastered the basics of their class features, though they continue to improve throughout these levels. They have found their place in the world and have begun to involve themselves in the dangers that surround them.
Masters of the realm:
By 11th level, characters are shining examples of courage and determination — true paragons in the world, set well apart from the masses. At this tier, adventurers are far more versatile than they were at lower levels, and they can usually find the right tool for a given challenge.
The later sounds much more to me like high level than the former.
This actually got me thinking, what level would Frodo be? With milestone leveling, this seems to be the most likely to me:
1 - leaves Hobbiton 2 - arrives at Bree 3 - survives Weathertop / awakens in Rivendell 4 - survives Moria 5 - escapes Boromir 6 - meets Faramir 7 - enters Mordor / survives Shelob 8 - throws The Ring into Amon Amarth
You could maybe squeeze another level or 2 in there, but 8 - 10 sounds about right for Frodo. Give Sam a few extra levels for being the true hero of the story.
[ BG2: SoA is popular, Throne of Bhaal is quite possibly the worst received of the entire bunch, even including IWD2.
ToB is hated by being rushed due licensing stuff. Not by being high level. HotU is more loved than nwn1 and nwn2 motb is far more popular than base game. And note that both neverwinter nights has you at lv 3 after the tutorial and is possible to reach lv 10 on the first chapter.
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I checked the Dungeon Master’s Guide. It’s actually:
1 - 4: local heroes 5 - 10 - heroes of the realm 11 - 16 - masters of the realm 17 - 20 - masters of the world (...)
That is my BIGGEST problem with 5e. They did rules only for the typical sword coast adventure. A lv 11 guy in lower dark or in the 666th layer of the abyss is far from "masters of the realm", is probably weaker than a "local hero". Shadowfell is also a non threatening place on 5e. 2e and 3.5e was a edition that can be easily adapted to low magic settings, to horror settings, to survival settings and so on. 5e doesn't work well on D&D multiverse.
Can you imagine a campaign in 5e set in the Netherese city who survived Karsus avatar and is now in shadowfell?
If any notorious mage from Netheril : the Empire of magic with all powers is transported to 5e Faerun, the war would be like the video bellow(i know that he can't cast tier 10 spells anymore, but an just supposing)
[ BG2: SoA is popular, Throne of Bhaal is quite possibly the worst received of the entire bunch, even including IWD2.
ToB is hated by being rushed due licensing stuff. Not by being high level. HotU is more loved than nwn1 and nwn2 motb is far more popular than base game. And note that both neverwinter nights has you at lv 3 after the tutorial and is possible to reach lv 10 on the first chapter.
NWN got popular more for its persistent world scene than for any mechanical or individual module basis. Without PWs, it was a terribly middling game. Even when the EE came out, it was all anyone cared about facilitating at the end of the day.
Reaching high level hasn't been the success nor failing point of a D&D game. Further, these comparisons I always see to either older editions or official Netherese stuff from earlier editions don't make sense in the context of 5e. The ruleset changes, the lore does not - a 20th level character is still of incredible power relative to those around them, as before.
That is my BIGGEST problem with 5e. They did rules only for the typical sword coast adventure. A lv 11 guy in lower dark or in the 666th layer of the abyss is far from "masters of the realm", is probably weaker than a "local hero". Shadowfell is also a non threatening place on 5e. 2e and 3.5e was a edition that can be easily adapted to low magic settings, to horror settings, to survival settings and so on. 5e doesn't work well on D&D multiverse.
Can you imagine a campaign in 5e set in the Netherese city who survived Karsus avatar and is now in shadowfell?
If any notorious mage from Netheril : the Empire of magic with all powers is transported to 5e Faerun, the war would be like the video bellow(i know that he can't cast tier 10 spells anymore, but an just supposing
I really don’t understand what your actual objections are here. That a level 11 character isn’t as much of a big shot in realm of demons as she is in the prime material plane? Isn’t that how it is supposed to be?
I’ve designed a 5E campaign that takes place largely in the Shadowfell. There is no issues with that setting.
5E gives you all the freedom you need to make a setting, like Shadowfell, be as dangerous as you want/need it to be for your level. 5E is leaving more creative and imaginative freedom to the dungeon masters.
Reaching high level hasn't been the success nor failing point of a D&D game. Further, these comparisons I always see to either older editions or official Netherese stuff from earlier editions don't make sense in the context of 5e. The ruleset changes, the lore does not - a 20th level character is still of incredible power relative to those around them, as before.
Not truth. Do you know that on the module " The Throne of Bloodstone" introduces a city called "city of liches"? Being able to cast 9th tier spells is just one step towards lichdoom.
As for rules X lore, in a good game the rules are aligned with the lore. This is why Mistra dies a lot. They need to re write the magic system a lot...
Originally Posted by deathidge
5E gives you all the freedom you need to make a setting, like Shadowfell, be as dangerous as you want/need it to be for your level. 5E is leaving more creative and imaginative freedom to the dungeon masters.
This is not truth. Did you played Oblivion? On high level, combat becomes tedius due the way that the damage/hp scales.
To pick an example, imagine two lv 1 warlocks. One warlock with eldritch blast CAN OHK another WLK with 8 hp in 20% of the time. However, a lv 20 warlock even maximizing the rolls can't 3hk another lv 20 warlock; each lv up, the damage goes up a little and hp a lot. Compare it to 2e where you gain almost no hp after lv 10 and CON bonuses are very tiny. Even deity avatars and ancient dragons rarely goes above 200hp.
Poisoned arrows are a really nasty stuff on 2e. On 5e, are a minor inconvenience.
Shadowfell on 5e will not have the same lethality than on 2e. Dark Sun too. Dark Sun also has the political aspect. In a world where even Orks are problematic, having all dark themes like slavery being treated in a game would not be good.
Even I who LOVES epic campaigns realize that 5e will just not work past lv 15. The difference is that for me is due "oblivion effect", not balance or ultra powerful spells. Because lets be real. Everything that a PC can cast, a NPC can cast. And is not just my opinion. Descent to Arvenus, an adventure which ends up on literally the Hell has your party going from lv 1 to 13. IDK any module for 5e which goes above 15th level. Pathfinder 1e is different. A lot of modules end up around lv 17.
Lichdom isn't necessarily an increase in power, it's a way of extending your life. Cheating mortality. There are plenty of living casters that are more powerful than the vast majority of liches - in the canon lore of FR and D&D's megaverse as a whole.
Lichdom isn't necessarily an increase in power, it's a way of extending your life. Cheating mortality. There are plenty of living casters that are more powerful than the vast majority of liches - in the canon lore of FR and D&D's megaverse as a whole.
Well, immunity to diseases, cold(only resistance on 5e), attribute bonuses, magical abilities including fear aura is a huge increase in power. On pathfinder, if you apply the lich template to a creature, his CR goes up by +2 ( https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lich/ )
Even on 5e which nerfed a lot of powerful creatures, things like Legendary Resistance (3/Day), Legendary actions and etc are pretty nasty abilities ( https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Lich#content)
They are good abilities, but they aren't indicative of an increase in narrative power, which is what I thought you were getting at? Or is this just one of those situations where you'll decide whether you care about only 5e, only 2e or only the lore based on whether it fits a vague argument against capping the level before 20?
If this was a sandbox, an rpg or a combat focused game, I will be inclined to agree, but in this game they seem to offer a lot of things to do at lower level, like sneaking stuff, talk to the dead, animal handling, flame arrows, Sandman-kill sleeping enemies, diplomatic options, tadpole force powers, etc... and 5e offers some interesting abilities at low level so a higher level is not that primordial like in other games based in other editions.
Originally Posted by Annyliese
BG2: SoA is popular, Throne of Bhaal is quite possibly the worst received of the entire bunch, even including IWD2.
I think that title goes to Siege of Dragonspear, for a long margin...
