Originally Posted by praxidicae
Originally Posted by Skallewag


There is a huge difference in a class being viable for a dip an the class being viable for higher levels.
Warlock is a very good dip class, the problem with them is their scaling for higher levels.


I know that the standard Warlock dip is a 2-3 levels for Invocations and/or Pact Boon, but I've played warlocks into level 10/11 range without them feeling weak or underpowered, it's all about maximising the utility of your invocations and spell choices.

Once you get to 12+ and there isn't much else there beyond the Mystic Arcanum, but honestly I've never had a game that started at 1 get much beyond the Tier 3 range anyway (and dipping 2-5 levels into Rogue or Fighter for Cunning Action or Action Surge is almost always worthwhile).

I'll completely agree that mechanically speaking the class is pretty front-loaded and that you get most of what you want from it in the first 10-11 levels or so, but I don't really consider it one of the weaker classes in the game (particularly if Hexblade is being permitted), though I suppose a lot of the class's utility is dependent upon how frequently your group can/do short rest (at the time in question I was playing with a Monk and a Fighter as two of the other three party members, meaning that short rests were fairly regular throughout the gaming day).


It is a difficult task for sure to design a class that is both fun and rewarding to play as a pure class or fun to do as a multiclass without being stupidly overpowered when combined with certain stuff. Warlocks however are definetly one of the classes that has a somewhat weaker lategame if you aim for the higher levels of the class. The combination of their slimmselection of high level spells and how they transition from spell slots to the mystic arcanum stuff make them a lot less versatile and potent as high level casters. Im not saying they are unplayably bad, its just that a lv 17 warlock is a lot more lackluster than a lv 17 wizard, bard, druid, cleric, sorc is as a high level caster.

Looking round at how warlocks are being played in various groups its very common for people to not pick up a lot of stuff beyond a certain level. Some leave the class early after having picked up some eldritch invocations, warlock unique spells and quickcharging spell slots, some stay in it a bit longer but ultimately multiclass into something else. The reason for this is that higher level warlock stuff isnt very rewarding and they are worse at being high level casters. The one perk of short rest recharging magic you mention is powerfull indeee, but it doesnt scale beyond 5th level magic.