Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Request: Remove one-shot push/pull mechanics

Scenario 1:

On the way to the goblin village, you run across a goblin garrison with an archer at the top. Thinking I was being tactically smart, I ran my rogue all the way up there to engage the archer in melee. Little did I know that the goblin apparently had the strength of a giant and literally sent me flying off the cliff with a single punch. Not just stumbling off; my rogue went blasting off horizontally as if hit by a car and instantly died.

Scenario 2: Fighting Absolute True Soul Gut. Above where she hangs out, the player can hide in the rafters and attack from above. Except that Gut apparently - surprise! - possesses some overpowered magical artifact that allows her to instantly pull any of your characters down, instantly killing them. At a height that many spells can't reach, she can just point and instantly kill you. No save, no chance of failure. (And at level 3!)



Look, I know Divinity has always been about ridiculous mechanics, and that many players love it (and many others do not). But this is D&D. When Baldur's Gate was announced, I was excited to possibly have a PC game experience of what I get when I go to the game store for a table. I'm looking for a D&D game, not a Divinity sequel wrapped in a D&D skin. As with a D&D table, I would rather not have to cheese my way through every part of the game to progress. I would prefer to spend my energy on the RP aspect. And a good start for that would be to remove things like what I pointed out above. I hope devs will at least consider it.

Duergar fight in the underdark I had to redo multiple times because its a bunch of wooden bridges and kept gettin my ass kicked off. Then I found where the dudes spawn point was and hes actually just sitting there invisible so id light the ground on fire and punt him off and we were in a safe position. It was ridiculous

Being tossed of from high altitude is and should be a threat, which is why you want high athletics score to resist.

Nah, getting heavy damage while being pushed down a cliff/tall building is absolutely fine. If anything it should hurt MORE.
I would just like if they made the "physics" and animation of being pushed/falling a bit more believable, because right now the effect is a bit too cartoony and somewhat a mismatch with the style of the game.

The damage from falls is fine. The ease to shove anyone long distances is not.

In 5e, shove consumes an attack. It is not a bonus action. It can't be freely spammed like in BG3, for a good reason.

In 5e, it pushes the target 5 feet. Not send them flying vertically like it does in BG3. Again, for a good reason.

Not sure how the Athletics vs. Athletics/Acrobatics contest is handled. That's probably accurate.

Can you resist shoving with mirror image, I think lower your chance to be hit?

Disagree, and disagree in part. The only change I see needed is making it a Standard Action.

Sure falling damage should hurt, but if you have actually ever played 5e tabletop you know that it rarely is enough to actually knock you out. It's meant to annoy not change the combat.

Compare that to what I described; with one move (one of which can't even be defended against), it's instant death. You really want that in this game? I certainly do not.

I think encouraging players to utilize verticality and push/pull people off ledges is definitely part of D&D. It's not just a DOS2 invention. There's more to D&D than just attacking with your weapon. The game rewards creativity, especially if you have a DM that is any good.

That said, the rules should more accurately represent D&D 5e. Not being a bonus action is probably a good start. That's what made pushing attack so good for Fighters. You could hit a target AND push them at the same time. Now you just get an extra push.

The problem is that it's not resisted very much, at least according to the lack of rolls in the combat log. I don't remember many instances where my 8 STR ranged party members had much difficulty shoving enemies away and walking away free and clear

Shove MUST be a CONSTESTED Athletics check

You're not wrong, but missing the point.

Yes push/pull is a D&D mechanic. A LIMITED mechanic. Push moves a opponent 5 feet in 5e, not blasting him/her into the void like seems to happen in this early access release. Similarly, pull mechanics like the Warlock invocation pull at most 10 feet, and you have to hit with your attack. True Soul Gut's gloves work every time literally drags your character in a straight line, and has a ludicrous range.

Furthermore, D&D adventures at lvl 3 generally do not involve 100 foot drops to be thrown down. As someone who has been involved with 5e since it's inception I can attest to that. Push/Pull is a minor mechanic in 5e, and only very rarely does it ever generate instant death. This is the developers unable to resist DOS2 style shenanigans, not a D&D thing.

Unless my playthrough was bugged, I also believe Shove is currently a Bonus Action or Free Action, whereas it should be an Action. I was able to shove after casting an Action spell or using a scroll.

It's worth noting that you can trivialize fights with this ability and it seems like without a significant revision, the ability will greatly limit the environmental design space for high CR monster encounters.

For example,

Wait till you encounter minotaurs in the underdark which is all ledges and high narrow paths. Since this game has no formations, your party always starts bunched up. The minotaur can jump pounce right on your party knocking everyone down. He also gets multiple attacks per round so if he wins initiative, he will knock each of your party to their death literally before you can even get a chance to do anything.

I had a wyvern flip a player off from 200 feet. They took 64 damage, barbarian half damage, 32 damage. I havent looked at what their calculations are because its a bunch of arcing and bouncing off of things. Ill try to pay attention next time. But that was 200***** feet. 100 feet would have been 32. These are usually like...30 feet so like 18 damage boxcar-ing it. Seems like its too much at the moment.

@Moon Door enters the comments section@

@Moon Door dislikes comments about changing 1 shot pushes/pulls@

@Moon Door opens the Moon Door and pushes this comment to its death@

...

#gameofthrones

I'm pretty sure I've seen it resisted, but not very often. Maybe there's something wonky about not taking the skill into account or something. And it definitively should be an action, not a bonus action.

This



And this.

I'm glad to see that others agree on making the Push ability an Action rather than a Bonus Action.
It just seems too powerful, even cheesy, to be able to attack an enemy AND push him off the high ground. Basically doing two attacks with decent fall damage.
Extra cheese if you push powerful enemies off a cliff into the depths below, instantly killing them.


On the side, I have never failed a Push ability so far (with either Shadowheart or my custom Wizard). I don't know if there're any rolls going on or if it's an automatic success, but it seems way to easy.

I did fail some attempts so I guess there is a roll in the background.

The arrow that pushes someone also needs a revisit I think. It was great fun pushing a particularly dangerous foe into a pit with some spiders in to be eaten, but it was also seriously OP. An archer shouldn't be able to blow people halfway across the map with a mundane arrow.