Originally Posted by Orbax
Originally Posted by Strongchad386

A Trickery Cleric who is bad at Stealth and Sleight of Hand and doesn't have proficiency in Deception isn't going to make great use of Disguise Self, Pass Without Trace, etc. AND they gave her high Strength to boot, which tells me they want her dealing damage up close?



Stealth - Blessing of the trickster = Advantage on stealth, pass without a trace = +10 to your roll. Thats a pretty hefty advantage for anyone.
Disguise self - no modifier needed. The only thing that matters there is an insight check from the other party that needs to beat the DC of your spellcasting ability, wisdom, to see through the illusion.
Deception - Charisma, - you can charm, and can cast guidance to add the D4 (as Disguise Self and charm are not concentration spells) to add to whatever change to the DC is involved with the disguise self. Not being proficient in it is a shame, but I dont think it outweighs the advantages you get from the rest of their toolkit.

There ARE negatives to stealth and all that, but realistically she doesn't need it. Shes either being a face or getting past someone with the rest of the party. I am having a hard time thinking about a time where shes going to go forth and be the stealth hero while everyone waits behind.

The biggest gap is the duplicate that is just a distraction in this. Not being able to disguise self, cast a duplicate, and then cast spells through it changes where she needs to be. Having a duplicate that has mirror image on it is one HECK of a distraction for the enemy that completely wastes their time.

But, without the duplicate, still highly functional and i have used disguise self against the gith and other things to good effect. I just never caught myself going "argh! if only her [stat] was higher!"


I want you to know that I appreciate the devil's advocate position, but I'm not sure you're seeing what I'm saying. For you, she's "fine" and that's okay. For me, it would take a minor change to take her from "fine" to "fun". Because that's the thing, isn't it? She's not fun. To use one of your examples: my issue isn't that she *can't* be going forth and be the Stealth hero, it's that she *won't* go forth and be the Stealth Hero. It's not that she *can't* tank or be the face - it's just that there are better party members to do it. She might not be the worst party member at everything you'd want her to do, it's just that there's always someone else who does it better. And that leads me to reference your very last point: are you telling me you're perfectly happy to give her Shield of Faith if that means she can't concentrate on Bless or Bane instead? You don't think that needlessly sacrifices a Cleric's versatility/utility?