Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Feedback and thoughts on Evil Side

Ya'll playing neutral characters. Your letting reward decide what to do, not swayed either way by good or evil. So stop kidding yourself.

A: Halsin is kidnapped by goblins, meaning he may not be very powerful. This combined with fact you, yourself can kill the goblins would lead your character to believe he's not all that. So he's not sure thing. After all if he was this powerful why'd he let himself get caught in the first place? As an evil character why would you help someone to weak to defend themselves against goblins, you need someone strong enough powerful enough to remove this thing from your head, not be captured by goblins. If he is that powerful, then that means the goblins are even stronger, or their leaders are. So they're more likely to be able to help you. Plus fact he is a goody two shoes, who will help other goody two shoes, including heros that are annoying, and a threat. Plus can't be manipulated, or controlled do to their boring moral code. Unless you get stronger! Since your not changing yet.... and can use new ability.. hmmm.

B: You don't know this when you go to ask them for help, why are you telling them this, better to find out their plans first. (again in character) You are evil everyone is either 1. fodder 2. potential slave 3. useful ally to be later discarded. 4. A threat to your power 5. able to help you grow more powerful then be discarded. in the end as an evil person when they are no longer a use they're discarded. Dscarded more then likely killed, tortured, maimed, most of it for fun, first one so they don't try to usurp your power.

C. Why haven't they changed into mindflayers? Why haven't you showed any symptoms? Why can you use the tadpole, to do things and not change? (A new source of power for you to exploit? These people know lets use them, help them, get in good with them, learn their ways and then discard them.)

D. They offer you a way to utilize a new power per C. by fully understanding what is going on. Your so bent on getting rid of this tadpole (a thing a good person would want to do, or one who is fanatically against mind flayers.) why if it's not turning you into a mindflayer, then it's a source of power. A source these leaders seem to understand, so you can use them to find out about it. Then of course they have to go once they are no longer useful.

Your supposed to be evil, why are you looking at short term all the time? Why do you want the enemy to be stupid evil? Does a wizard/necromancer want to turn into a Lich for the extra power simply find what they need. No they have to work for it. So by fact it's not an immediate reward why would they bother? They're evil it will grant them power, but they have to work for it. It's a long road, which they have to follow to it's end. A thing your denying your characters because your interested in right now, give me, give me, give me. I must have things now, it must all be mine, right now.

stupid evil = allowing an unknow to waltz into your camp, give them rewards before they prove themselves, and their uses to you. Allow them free run of the camp, without knowing their intentions? Allowing them to live when they are going against what you want. (telling them you killed the mindflayer, and want tadpole gone.)

The only angles to align with the mind flayers/absolute I can think of are:

1)Delusional PC, that believe the parasite lunching on his/her brain and the mindflayers have his/her best interests at heart

or

2)Suicide cultist. Selfless/self-erasing PC that assert the renewal of the mind flayer empire as the absolute truth of his/her desire. To such a PC slavery to the mind flayers, and ultimately, death by ceremorphosis, functions as a goal in itself that transcends any personal gain, self-preservation and other "selfish" motives.

I'm not really interested in either RP option.

a. You need Halsin not because he's a poweful fighter, with the ability to slay all, you need him because you want a good healer. Why would you care about his proficiency in a fight? You aren't looking to recruit him as a merc, you want him to heal you.
And i don't understand why you assume 'goody thow shoes' can't be manipulated. Plenty of good peeps get manipulated, if anything manipulating a good person would be easier since they're more likely to believe the shit you say.

b. But when you ask them for help, they don't help! They offer you absolutely nothing usefull -> making them basically useless to you. SO by your logic, you wouldn't want to ally with them, you'd want to kill/ torture/ maim the goblin leaders.

c. But how do you know that they know? From all the convos you have with them they don't give you any rational explanation. No new info. Just a bunch of 'this is the will of the Absolute, i was chosen, blah blah'

d. You don't need to be good to want to get rid of the tadpole. You can be evil and see this tadpole as an inconvenience you want removed at all cost. But that's not the point. When you talk to them and join their side, they don't offer you a way to master your power, unless, again, i missed that convo.

They give you no explanation, no information, no new skill, no new powers. They give you nothing. As an evil char.. why would you waste your time on something that doesn't benefit you at all?
Unless of course you are evil for the sake of evil.

i like this one. and makes more sense since your looking at it not through good vs evil, reward vs. no reward but another deeper issue.




A. Looking at what you've seen druids do. A fairly common druid shape shifted into a bear, if you killed Kadga you'd see her as well shape shift, fought Nettie shapeshift. All these forms are from druids that can't help you, because their not strong enough. You yourself (believe, may believe) that you can take out some pesky goblins, you just did right before entering the grove, and did so easily. your character (may know powerful enough to remove the tadpole) druids are a force of a nature even those focused on healing are nasty in a fight. If Halsin is a strong enough Druid to remove this tadpole he should also be able to protect himself from simple things like goblins, or escape. He didn't so one can draw the conclusion he isn't really all that powerful. That he got captured alone shows he's not stronger then the goblins, and who leads the goblins, the strongest. Talking with certain Npc lets you know information that comes into play into another conclussion (if you didn't get this, or any of the others then it wouldn't come into play from characters stand point.) Goody two shoes can be manipulated but again if he is strong enough to remove this tadpole, he may very well be smart enough to avoid your manipulation (can be enhanced if you fail/failed to persuade Kadga and/or nettie. If your not able to then you can draw a conclusion that he is smarter and less likely to be manipulated by you), or figure out your manipulating him at the wrong time. Manipulating people isn't a given you don't want them to figure it out at the wrong time, especially those that are powerful, and you yourself haven't come into your power yet. It's the before stated Risk to Reward. The risk is very high that manipulation will be found out, by Halsin in this case, and if you put him back in his grove (a thing that enhances druids powers) then you've not only given him his seat of power back, but followers, lost the chance to remove a powerful enemy before they suspected you, gave Heros in the location a safe harbor to work out of. So manipulating Halsin though rewards you with removal or may reward you with removal of tadpole. has just given power to your enemies Which do o moral code good people are, especially Heros, and Halsin is probably one of those types to hunt evil.

B. If they prove useless to you, then as an evil character they are useless, but they have to prove it. Again this goes to you having to prove to them as well. They are evil you have to prove to them your useful. So you have to do what they want you to, again they are evil. Halsin helps you because you rescue him, proving to him (wether or not it's true your useful, and good). This is the basic thing in quests, proof. If you fail at a quest you've proven you can't do it, and don't get a reward. If you complete the quest you get the reward. So for Halsin you got a quest to rescue him, you complete it he heals you or attempts to. If you don't rescue him he doesn't help. Much like if you don't do what the leaders want they don't help.

C. You don't straight up, you do know (if you get the conversation), they are powerful, and have a powerful healer. Again the captured Halsin, are making lives miserable to those behind a fortification enough that the druids are preparing a ritual to protect them. Meaning the druids are afraid of this group even with their magic, and walls. In order for new things to open up you have to follow them to completion. If you don't follow to completion no matter if it's good or evil you won't know. Thats why theres no new info. Halsins quest started back at the Grove when you learned of him. If you didn't follow it then there would be no new info. You asked nettie for help, she didn't help she tried to kill you. again had to follow to completion on Netties quests to find that out, and escape.

D. Your right you don't need to be good to do that, and can see it that way good or evil. It may be a missed conversation, but again you won't know until you follow it to completion. It seems that alot of people are not following these quests to completion or are just rushing through without exploring. Then coming here to bemoan this and that imo. I'm merely offering one view, not all my views, that could be why you join goblins, and not Halsin. IMO it seems people expect to be welcomed like they were in the grove by evil people when they show up, or to not follow the goblins path because it's longer. Instead choosing the quick and easy path which is neutral since your siding with good (meaning you have no real feelings towards good and evil) vs. chosing evil, which may bring about more power for your character, and rid you of someone that will pose a threat in the future. (being halsin, Harpers, and other good people that stroll by Halsin who will heal them, feed them, maybe even supply them since there is a trader in the grove.)

As an evil character why would you help good? By helping Halsin you give everyone that is good and comes by (much like the refugees) a place to stock up, heal, plan, safety, security. Since you are evil that includes those coming after you, or will want to come after you. Unless you plan on leaving and never returning to this part of the country. Which may very well happen, yet anyone in the future coming through here to hunt you down can stop by the grove. Find out you'd been there where you were headed (or direction) stock up, heal up, and be on there way unmolested by the goblins. Region turns stable making it harder for evil to act including you! Because good guys stick together, bad guys don't for very long.

If you find the leaders after completing their quests to be useless, you may just leave and go look for the creche. In that scenerio you can always come back, maybe take over, start a new cult, whatever. yet there won't be for a while a druid grove to stock up heros, offer shelter to refugees, a powerful healer to heal good heros, etc. Even heros coming through are going to have to contend with goblins, and maybe even the leaders. If the heros win good, if the leaders wins good. How is that good because either way a potential rival is done away with, and one or the other is weakened. Hero wins goblins scatter you can manipulate the goblins into working for you, slowly building up your own goblin army, in a region that has been unstable. Region still unstable easier to work in if thats your desire. hero continues to work in region or believes threat gone.

Again all this is just theory, ways of viewing it that matches one of my characters. Each is thought out from what that character knows, and has found out. Are they the way for your character to go up to you.

Not going to quote all the text, but lol, here we go:

a. Well, again, healing and fighting are diff things, but surely you don't expect Halsin to single-handedly kill every goblin in the temple? If we are judging Minthara&co. by the same criterion, how come they're so weak that they can't succesfully attack the grove. EVEN with superior numbers. The way the battle plays out if you side with them is that YOU, the player char, get rid of everyone in the grove. Minthara and her gang contribute almost nothing ...which may be a gameplay thing more than anything else, (or maybe i was that lucky) but still... Not exactly an inspiring display of power, is it?

And Alright.. lets roll with the 'Halsin is a weakling'. Would it not be more lucrative to keep him around as opposed to keeping Minthara and co. around? You know, to ensure that your opponent/rival (in your example Halsin) is easier to eliminate if the need ever arises? Why keep the 3 goblin leader around if they are overall a bigger threat to you?
Would it not be easier to use Halsin, 'cash in' the favour?.. have him serve u?.. since you saved him and all?

b. They have to prove they're useful. OK, but why would you waste time and effort, if you DON'T KNOW if they're going to be useful at all? At that point you're operating under the assumprion that surely if i help them they help me. But why would they help you in return? Why would they not, being the evil guys, use you and then throw you away?
Again, since Halsin is a 'good guy' you can trust that he at least, is going to hold his end of the deal. Which means you have higher chances of getting what YOU want.

c. If you don't want Halsin's help or don't want to help him - fine. You know what you can do? Kill Minthara and talk to her corpse. She'll tell you where to go next. She'll point you to moonrise tower or whatever the name.

d. Evil has to be appealing, otherwise nobody would choose the evil path. If i have to do the same amount of work, or arguably MORE work, to be evil, then why would i? Why would anybody?
Unless as stated above they're 'delusional or suicide cultists'

Hmm. The game actually explicitly tells you that corpses won't talk to their killers. It's even in the hints on the loading screens. So I never bothered.

They won't talk to your main char, but they talk to your companions just fine.

thanks I was thinking the same thing lol

A. No but he should been able to get away, by some reasoning. After all the 3 at the gate did, and they're not especially powerful seeming. So someone more powerful in theory be able to do so. For instance bears run faster then humans so goblin bowling. Evil leaders don't show up for all the fights, one they are softening up the grove, 2 the goblins were a hunting party and came across the Adventurers and Halsin so again leaders wouldn't be with them. As to assualt on the grove as my character isn't there (character I'm using for this view) she wouldn't know. Though if this happened they would again have proven useless leading her to react to their uselessness in whatever way she deems necassary. Being drow it will probably be very creative, and very painful. Yet one objective was served a longer objective. Keeping a region destabilized for easier Drow raids, or for you to take over. 2. deny enemy fortifications, and increase in power. 3. the joy of hearing innocents scream. 4. Knowledge that I need to seek elsewhere to remove/learn about this tadpole. As you see like in real life she changes her views, and plans as more information is provided. Which is what your character would do. Though many of the others have dropped out of the discussion, still it's showing alternate ways that could be written in, and improved.

1. The problem with Halsin isn't just him, it's the stability of the region he would give. The fortified druid grove, the access to trader, and other things that he would be virtue of being alive give to the forces of good. With Min and Co. alive good would have to fight for that stability, which would take time, and fight for that foothold. Drawing forces from other places, drawing resources from strong holds, which makes them easier to get at since the resources are no longer behind walls, and as heavily guarded.

2. Since Min and & Co are evil they are more inclined to share similair beliefs for example raiding farms, or monastaries, or druid groves. Hunting down heros, making life miserable for people in general. Which can aid you if you plan on operating in this area. Which draws more attention large forces of goblins rampaging around the country side, or you going about your business? If they showed they are weak then keeping them around and subjegating them later on is a valid option. If they showed how weak they were by letting you do all the heavy lifting. All the better you now have proof that they are not currently a threat. Make an example out of one if need be, keep the others cowed, and destabilizing the area. Again if it's where your basing your operations. If not simply leave, they'll still be distractions, still drawing attention away from you. Which is always a good thing.

B. All ths can be said about Halsin as well, it's the crux of it all. The uggg are they useful, or are they not. You don't know if they are going to be, and not even sure if Halsin will be. yet in the long run as per 2 Min and goblin forces are useful simply by existing then Halsin is. The next part is another one of those uggg are they going to play me, or not. Yet there is the tadpole, which like with your companions forms a bond perhaps. A way to get your foot in the door, futher things you can run into will affect the view, or plan. For instance most of my views are just in Druids Grove since I'm only using one character to keep the view focused. Or I would be typing pages. The fact you do know Halsin is a good guy is a strong point in favor of going with him. Yet it weakens if your going to use this area for BoO do to previously mentioned statements. Again something to take into consideration, is how long one is planning on staying there.

C. It's always an option though think you killing them will adversely affect the difficulty of rolls that would be forthcoming. Could just leave them all to their own devices.or again side with halsin. Depending again on your character. One of mine who's evil may end up siding with Halsin not for (rewards, etc) just because he's not wholly evil, more neutral and just wants the damn bug out of his head. Also he dislikes goblins and they are kos for him, generally he just dislikes everyone. Even the fools he's traveling with, but they may know something he doesn't. there are other reasons but not going into detail.

D. Or they are planning for the long road. Maybe a return to this part of the area, and they want it to be destabilized. maybe they are working to simply create chaos and goblins do that very well. This part is moving onto the whole discussion of lawful, neutral, or chaotic evil. Which is a more narrowed view.

True it has to be tempting to play evil, but the same goes for good. If everyone is simply choosing the good path then there won't be feed back for all aspects of the evil path. If everyone is focused simply on rewards, and ease of path. Then the longer ones won't get feedback. Evil is often times not rewarded by other evil people. It is in games a reward to break out of the normal path, to go 'crazy' and do things differently. To try and be that slimey, sleezeball noone wants, and stick it to the face of good. or to be that murder hobo, or delussional physchopath, or whatever. That in and of itself can be rewarding. Not having to worry about the moral issues, simply (though I admit sadly) being evil for the sake of evil. With just your and mine conversation it's givin a brief peak in somethings that can be added to the game. Then further discussed, on how to go about it. Rewards and immedaite gratifications are self evident in my opinion. Larian should already know this, yet what are different ways of going about it in adding more things. maybe a created stronghold for the pc, or letting them take over for Min, or letting them use the grove as a BoA and tying the grove into the camp function, or the goblin base into the camp function, etc. having a hero show up, and running into the players etc. Something besides immediate reward on quest completion. Which is why I tend to play the devils advocate.

sorry for my walls of text you all. just hard to say so much in so few words, and not have assumptions tossed around like candy at a parade.

That didnt work for me. Might be bugged for me then? That's odd.

also even if it doesn't change anything. I'm just glad for intellectual debate. lol

The problem is your head canon is at this point not supported by feedback in the game, That keeps it just that, your head canon. It doesn't fit mine

Very well, then let us look at it this way: The game already allows you to be a murder hobo. It's a viable route, if it fits your character's motivation then by all means kill everyone.
The game also allows you to side with the gobblins, great if your character has the motivations you listed previously.

But then what about ..the selfish self-serving evil type? The game doesn't quite offer you an alternative here, since the best way to go about it is still to side with Halsin or at the very least kill Minthara - things that a 'good' character will also have to do. So what distinguishes your evil char from your good one?

Is there any dialogue that lets your character tell everyone that 'i only did it because it was the fastest way to accomplish my goal'. I think you get something like that with Shadowheart at the camp party, but she DOESN'T EVEN BELIEVE YOU when you say it, so...idk.

Oh well, did you previously talk to the corpse? I know that if i use 'talk to corpse' once i can't retry with a different char.
But i know for sure that i talked to Minthara and Spike after killing them.

Yeah, Being Evil always was hard in D&D game; the only C-RPG that allowed for interesting evil was Tyranny, which was exceptonnal at that; In BG3, I have yet to see a good reason to be evil except the usual madman, or greedy soldier who would kill anything for gold/bloodlust. We need more smart, political evil like in Tyranny, that allow the player to seize additional power and influence by performing bad deeds. This can comes in many way, including gold, trinkets, but also alternate quest lines. For example, by being evil, you could be offered a easy solution, a privilege, for a latter quest. Or a house with bodyguard and your voice in the druid council. Just an example.

@Renaire I have, i know you get another skill of "reapply" or something, but the ability itself wouldn't do anything with a companion, that's why im assuming its a bug. I couldn't even click on the body lol

No no, don't try to reapply. You only get one chance to talk to a corpse 'that refuse to talk to its murderer'. If you already got the 'it wont talk to you' then you can't retry after with a comp. It won't be selectable. I had to reload and make sure that my comp was the first one to talk to the corpse.

But if that didn't work for you, then yeah, idk, might be a bug.

Lol, it was never meant to. It did succeed in what it was meant for though.

Getting others to tell specifics that they are looking for, why this isn't working, what they want it to do, what they are thinking at one point, and why. What ideas, or story bits can be added to the game to make playing evil be worth it. for instance the hag wasn't brought up as a viable option until deep into a discussion. The fact that Min and goblins didn't help you in the grove. That the Leaders didn't much do anything at all. That finding out certain things about the Absolute is being missed. plus more that slowly came out over the discussion.

All this if read supplies better feedback then. Evil side is stupid, because I don't get a reward. Also it lets players know that they are indeed missing things that can help them better understand, whats going on. Who is who, and what is what. Even if they don't read my blocks of text. The smaller replies have it in them.

Oh yeah, i didnt reload, just retried it with the companion, that might be it. Whoops!

Joneleth Irenicus is now a MurderHobo.