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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement.
Well, congratulations, you just ruined a spotless record for the sake of it and managed to support TWO terrible design decisions in a row. Hope you'll sleep well with this heinous crime on your conscience.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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Not to pat myself in the back, but four full pages of thread in and this must be possibly the LEAST divisive topic on this board and the one suggestion where I think every single reply so far agrees with.
I posted the same summary of the issue on Steam as well and even there I have yet to see a single reply of someone disagreeing that these controls are bad and traditional RTS.like ones would be a significant improvement.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying this to compliment myself, but just to stress a thing to Larian: when even in a forum like this you can hardly find a single person willing to defend the system you are using, there must be something genuinely weak about it that NEEDS to be addressed.
Not so fast, sunshine. First off, I fully agree that it’s currently quite wonky, and even in DOS2 it was a bit cumbersome. However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement. There’s certainly some advantages to a system where you can separate one or more characters and leave the rest moving as a group. Particularly in a game where you can send one character off to the other end of the map to do things separate from from the rest of the party. I imagine it’s pretty useful for multiplayer, so for instance 2 players can have 2 teams of 2 moving together, without having to constantly select 2 characters to move. There’s certainly big issues with pathfinding, using stealth, and even the dragging to link and unlink characters (which really should have been improved 2 games ago), but the basic system isn’t bad at all. If they fix things like the pathfinding and the amount your lead character gets ahead, and add some shortcuts for linking and unlinking party members (eg shift-click to unlink and move) then it could be a better system than other games. I’m not sure why some want to drag a selection box around characters they want to move in 3D game with so much height variation. It works well for infinity engine and similar games, but that doesn’t mean it would work well for this one. If the party was ever split up and drag selecting wasn't handy, you could just shift or control click portraits, or directly on the characters. You know, like Baldur's Gate. When the party was together, drag selecting would be faster and you could use that. The basic control scheme in DoS and BG3 IS bad. It's slower and more cumbersome than traditional BG controls in every way.
Last edited by Mogan; 14/10/20 02:07 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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Hey are we talking about how you have to make everybody jump individually otherwise your entire party just nope so off into the distance? Because the fact that you have to make everybody jump individually or your entire party just malfunctions is absolutely ridiculous especially with the verticality of this game compared to the previous divinity titles
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Hey are we talking about how you have to make everybody jump individually otherwise your entire party just nope so off into the distance? Because the fact that you have to make everybody jump individually or your entire party just malfunctions is absolutely ridiculous especially with the verticality of this game compared to the previous divinity titles Yeah, that’s basically a consequence of not being able to select/give the same command to multiple units at once. Same as being forced to put in and out of stealth characters individually. Because, you know, shitty control scheme is shitty, even if Mr “Not so fast” here takes pride in being the only life form on this planet willing to defend it.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
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However, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the whole linking party members system in principle, it just needs some refinement.
Well, congratulations, you just ruined a spotless record for the sake of it and managed to support TWO terrible design decisions in a row. Hope you'll sleep well with this heinous crime on your conscience. Sorry to break your spotless record of people all forgetting (or not caring) that the control system has to work for multiplayer as well. I know it’s nice to bask in all those plus +1s, but you did actually ask why why they used this system, compared to all the single player games you mentioned. A simple example is two players each controlling their main character and one NPC. You ‘d want 2 teams of 2 moving around without having to select them each time. Then you might want to give one player control of both NPCs while the other goes solo for a bit. There’s also potential conflicts if both players try to grab control of the same character at the same time. I’m not entirely sure what’s going on under the hood, but I think it’s more than just selecting and moving characters, but switching control of them between up to 4 computers.
If the party was ever split up and drag selecting wasn't handy, you could just shift or control click portraits, or directly on the characters. You know, like Baldur's Gate. When the party was together, drag selecting would be faster and you could use that. The basic control scheme in DoS and BG3 IS bad. It's slower and more cumbersome than traditional BG controls in every way.
I’m all for better and faster ways to link/unlink characters and move them. I don’t much like dragging portraits about, as that’s always been a bit finicky. But I do find having them grouped can be useful even in single player. For multiplayer, it’s probably essential to have something like the way they’ve done it. Suggestions to improve the system are helpful. Just saying it that original BG is better isn’t really, and its more likely to be ignored.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2020
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Honestly I never use a linked party in BG3, unless I'm just moving through in an already cleared area. Or have to go through an instance door with full party.
Would be suicide to move with the way is set up.
I control just a single character, rest is parked one by one, in stealth, somewhere safe. Then after the scouting ahead is done, I move them one by one. Takes very long, it's really like a chess game, just way slower.
Feels like hard work to move everything right, but there's no other way. Once I was lazy, coming from camp and the game joined them in a party, and I moved toward the swamp area, where of course was a trap in the water. Then couldn't move them away at all because they were stuck at different times and their health started going down fast, so had to un-chain and save them one by one.
After that had to go back to camp to heal. So learned my lesson: never move all at once.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Sorry to break your spotless record of people all forgetting (or not caring) that the control system has to work for multiplayer as well.
You seem to be under the delusion that Larian games are the only titles in the genre supporting multiplayer. OR a gamepad-friendly control scheme, for all that matter. A simple example is two players each controlling their main character and one NPC. Which is is still incomparably better with RTS controls. You know, the genre that across almost three decades since Dune 2 PERFECTED having to control multiple units at once and make it as quick and intuitive as possible. Unless you are adamant about playing with a controller... Where incidentally NO ONE would prevent you to still use with an autofollow feature, as other games did. You are acting smug about "people basking in their +1s" and taking pride in your being the lone voice outside of the choir, but it's starting to sound like you just love to defend terrible designs for the sake of it, to be perfectly honest. Which I wouldn't care for, if your effort to be special wouldn't be harmful for the quality of the product in the long run. P.S. Fun fact: controllers aren't even supported and usable currently. It's in the "to do" list.
Last edited by Tuco; 14/10/20 11:42 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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Agreed. Movement and precision can be downright infuriating at times with the current setup. Took me awhile when I first started to even find out there was no partial select or full party select option outside of the cumbersome and fiddly "chaining" system. I much preferred the more fast and precise "click and drag box" of the original BG series. Also, the formation options gave me knowledge of exactly where a party member would go or attempt to go.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I was specially salty about the movement today playing a Raven familiar. A FLYING animal not being able to follow you because of a ledge is ridiculous.
Necromancy is just recycling...
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Agreed. Movement and precision can be downright infuriating at times with the current setup. Took me awhile when I first started to even find out there was no partial select or full party select option outside of the cumbersome and fiddly "chaining" system. I much preferred the more fast and precise "click and drag box" of the original BG series. Also, the formation options gave me knowledge of exactly where a party member would go or attempt to go. A quick and dirty workaround to the issue would at very least be a hotkey to chain/unchain everyone instantly. It would still suck and be just a marginal patchwork to a system that requires an extensive revamp, but at least there would be a convenient safenet against the most infuriating situations. P.S. I literally just relaized that there's a typo in the thread title and I can't find an option to edit it, for some reason.
Last edited by Tuco; 14/10/20 02:30 PM.
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member
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member
Joined: May 2020
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Never had to "figure out" how to move characters before in a CRPG. It's always been intuitive. The movement and party formation management in this game feels wonky and broken.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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It's funny to me that a team who had never worked on video games before and had so little programming knowledge (BioWare) managed to create a CRPG that did so many things right the first time including movement and party management...
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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Sorry for the blunt title, I tried a more polite "Honest feedback: I don't like the way Larian defaults control of the whole party" but I ran out of characters half way through the sentence.
Aaaanyway, back to the topic.
This control based on the position of a single character with all companions defaulting on auto-follow is genuinely cumbersome when you compare it to pretty much any other RPG in the same subgenre: the old BG games, Torment, Icewind Dale, Temple of Elemental Evil, Pillars of Eternity, Pathfinder, etc., where you simply cliclck and drag to select multiple characters, keep them in a formation you can rotate dragging the cursor and you can quickly send each one of them in different direction with ONE click.
There are several problems with the Larian solution:
- it's slower to use properly when precision is required.
- it's less accurate.
- it's a mess that turns into a comedic skit with idiots running randomly anywhere in any situation where you need to give everyone QUICK instructions on where to position.
- that mess can be deadly when there are combat triggers and/or traps around.
I can't honestly think of a single excuse to defend this "innovative" system they introduced since DOS1 in comparison with the above-mentioned titles.
I have to ask my fellows forum dwelllers: is there ANYONE who actually likes the Larian system the most? And if that's the case can that good soul (may the gods have mercy on him) tell us WHY?
Agreed, I much prefer selectable formations the same as in the old Infinity engine games, that have been emulated in the newer CRPGs, I think it worked really well in them and with a little tweaking could probably service this game quite nicely. and yes I find Larians way rather confusing and unintuitive in comparison. I haven't had chance to put much time into it yet so I don't know if their system will grow on me but I don't think so, I found a top down view to play the game (though I don't remember how) so why not give us classic controls with the classic view?
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Agreed, I much prefer selectable formations the same as in the old Infinity engine games, that have been emulated in the newer CRPGs, I think it worked really well in them and with a little tweaking could probably service this game quite nicely. and yes I find Larians way rather confusing and unintuitive in comparison.
I haven't had chance to put much time into it yet so I don't know if their system will grow on me but I don't think so, I found a top down view to play the game (though I don't remember how) so why not give us classic controls with the classic view?
I can't speak for you, but I can tell you that if anything over the years using it since DOS1 I've grown more and more annoyed about it. There's no "getting use to it". But even if that happened somehow, would be the gaming equivalent of growing accustomed to an abusive relationship.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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how about this new party movement, WITH a smart ruling system :
-1 party by default avoids obvious harm (hitbox), can be overwritten in option.
-2 party split button.
-3 party memory jumping to follow u'r jump steps, or try. ( yes i currently make them jump one by one over obstacles and it gets my immersion to a crawling halt)
-4 option : my party ignores harm existence if they are not in sight to see me walk on specific or all trap/terrains.
-5 party not jumping down roofs by autopathing, to jump down roofs, go to the edge first.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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how about this new party movement, WITH a smart ruling system :
-1 party by default avoids obvious harm (hitbox), can be overwritten in option.
-2 party split button.
-3 party memory jumping to follow u'r jump steps, or try. ( yes i currently make them jump one by one over obstacles and it gets my immersion to a crawling halt)
-4 option : my party ignores harm existence if they are not in sight to see me walk on specific or all trap/terrains.
-5 party not jumping down roofs by autopathing, to jump down roofs, go to the edge first. Seems like an extremely convoluted solution that address only parts of the issues, to a problem that could be solved way more easily in a definitive manner.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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No need to sugarcoat it: It is horrible.
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veteran
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OP
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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No need to sugarcoat it: It is horrible. Never intended to. As I said several times, my hate for it is only growing the more I use it.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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This is the clunkiest RPG I've ever played, bar none. No formations, individual jumping coupled with terrible pathing, the stealth to combat transition... just all around terrible. Targeting needs to be improved as well. It would be ideal to click the party member's portrait when casting a spell on them, but nope, gotta pixelbitch around the map. Oh well, enjoy the healing word Goblin #2.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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Here's what I'd like to see:
1. Let us select multiple characters at once and give generic orders to every selected at the same time. If I've got two or more party members selected and I hit sneak, they all sneak.
2. Let us drag select and click on characters to select them. Rick-click can be talk to, or talk can be added to the context menu. Items on the ground that can be moved should be moveable only while a modifier key is held down (maybe one that also highlights all interactable objects?!).
3. Button and key command for select all party members.
4. No more auto follow. It's a bad solution to a problem a CRPG like this shouldn't have.
5. Freer camera. Only being able to orbit on a flat plane is too restrictive. Whatever point the camera's looking at, let us orbit around it freely at any angle that doesn't clip through the ground. And let us zoom out further so the camera's whacking into terrain less.
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