Originally Posted by FrostyFardragon
Originally Posted by Sunfly
There is virtually no reason right now to pick anything for Warlock besides cha blast and shove blast. Everything else you can gain either via optimizing your background and race or via in-game items. Battle Master is another non-example because of how incredibly strong ranged shoves are and the fact that their ranged shove also gets bonus damage (on an ability that will presumably already be generating lots of bonus damage). EK has some convenient abilities but the only major reason to pick it over battle master is because you're trying to make burst damage team and need more spellcasters. Build specialization is only a sacrifice if that build isn't generally superior to the alternatives. And again, on top of these examples there are arrows any accurate archer can use that also offer ranged shoving. I get your point that you can do both at the same time but if you were already planning to abuse bonus action melee shoves and you aren't a Thief then why are you not just optimizing around purely abusing ranged shoves instead? They're a lot safer and their subclass/subchoice investment is almost never at the cost of anything significant unless you're trying to run very particular team arrangements.


Warlock* and Battlemaster work just the same in PnP, and whist good, the other classes don't need free shoving to keep up.


*Apart from Devil's Sight lets you see in magical darkness (unlike darkvision), which is massively powerful combined with the Darkness spell.


They don't? Maybe that's how it is in tabletop 5e but going by what's effective in BG3 I don't think the same is true here. One shove can execute entire bosses and there's a plethora of "regular" fights where one shove can delete an equal number of enemies. Thief benefits from melee shoving because he gets two tries, everybody else becomes immensely more threatening with a ranged shove in the pocket because suddenly you don't have to try and bait the ai into vulnerable positions nearly as hard.

Devil's Sight is nice for what it is but it's also one of the things I meant when I said that background and race optimization cover anything you couldn't replace with items. Even if you're not optimizing super hard you can still work dancing lights onto most player characters with ease (and also get it from items). With that much access to darkvision and light manipulation already it's hard for me to see why you wouldn't want the infinitely spammable ranged shove instead. I do see your point about magical darkness but you could also simply use that slot to cast misty step and reposition in a way that forces whatever is in the darkness to come out.

Last edited by Sunfly; 15/10/20 02:53 PM.