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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Dec 2014
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Man, that article sure used a lot of words to only reveal these tidbits of information: rangers are better, true strike is changed, mage hand is changed, and thaumaturgy is changed. That's all it actually tells you! If rangers are better that may be a good thing, I haven't played a ranger past level 7 but everyone I talk to says that the class is weak and needs serious work to be worth playing at higher levels.
-Agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think that is a gross overstatement, the bulk of the game is 5e, with changes. Saying that this is just DOS with a glaze of D&D is clearly false, but these claims happens with every computer game interpretation of D&D. People were upset with changes in BG1, NWN1 and 2, DDO, etc. These complaints have become the unavoidable background noise of game development for this genre.
I can totally believe this. For me, I just want some closure on the topic. Either way I want to know the kind of game to expect. You should expect a turn based game based on the current edition of D&D, the way movies are "based on true events", which means liberties will be taken with the rules as the developers see fit. The final judgement of BG3 should be whether you had fun playing the game, not how closely the game hews to the canonical 5e rules. The people complaining about the game not following the 5e rules exactly are just looking for reasons to reject the game so they can part of the cool kids clique, they want to drive a pin into one single point of the D&Ds 40+ year history and claim that single point as the only true version while ignoring the fact that the game has changed constantly with every iteration as a published book or computer game. Not true at all, Baldur's Gate series is one of my favourite series of all time, and I'm a massive D&D nerd who plays pnp roleplaying (not always D&D) twice a week lol. I've been hyped for BG3 since it was announced and really interested to see the way they would go. I'm not looking for reasons to dislike it, I'm looking for reasons to like it, and there are some, but right now after playing the EA (and buying it for a friend! - I want the game to succeed or i'd not have dropped £100 on it on release), I'm concerned. It's plot structure feels a bit too forced and rushed at the start so doesn't feel particularly grounded. The crazy events of the tutorial would be better as the events of a first act after a prologue where you have more mundane events then get abducted. The companions are not especially likeable, which is sad as normally I'll love at least once companion in RPGs. The gameplay feels quite wonky right now, with a lot of stuff feeling unbalanced, and my concern is, most of the things that feel unbalanced are the things Larian changed from 5e. I totally get that some stuff will HAVE to change because of engine limitations. However, where BG1/2 had to change a lot because of the RTwP direction, right now BG3 is turn based so has fewer reasons to need to change things. D&D 5e does a pretty good job of it's balance overall, so IMO getting the CRPG working within the remit of that edition (because it's the current edition) first, getting that out to EA with a few tweaks (having surfaces is cool, but not as they're currently implemented, for example) which they can build on once they're comfortable they have that stuff right would have been a much better approach. I want a proper D&D 5e experience mechanically, because Larian did an awesome job including GM functionality in Original Sin 2, so the potential for running D&D 5e via BG3 is also very appealing, but it'll get a lot less buy in as an option if they diverge too far from the established ruleset. I really hope the storyline is tightened, perhaps a few more likeable companions are added and generally the game ends up as a huge success, I really want to play it and not get irked by mechanics that feel really unbalanced, especially when I know how those exact mechanics /could/ have been done. so in summary: No, I'm not saying i want the game to follow D&D 5e rules because I'm looking for excuses to hate it, I really want to love it, it has potential, I hope the issues are ironed out and the balance issues caused by their changes can be ironed out too, if the end result feels significantly better balanced than it is right now, tweaks are fine.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think that is a gross overstatement, the bulk of the game is 5e, with changes. Saying that this is just DOS with a glaze of D&D is clearly false, but these claims happens with every computer game interpretation of D&D. People were upset with changes in BG1, NWN1 and 2, DDO, etc. These complaints have become the unavoidable background noise of game development for this genre.
I can totally believe this. For me, I just want some closure on the topic. Either way I want to know the kind of game to expect. You should expect a turn based game based on the current edition of D&D, the way movies are "based on true events", which means liberties will be taken with the rules as the developers see fit. The final judgement of BG3 should be whether you had fun playing the game, not how closely the game hews to the canonical 5e rules. The people complaining about the game not following the 5e rules exactly are just looking for reasons to reject the game so they can part of the cool kids clique, they want to drive a pin into one single point of the D&Ds 40+ year history and claim that single point as the only true version while ignoring the fact that the game has changed constantly with every iteration as a published book or computer game. Nonsense, I wanted to like this game, hell I will freely admit that its probably a great game, just not the 5e experience I was looking for, simple as that.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jan 2018
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Someone will almost certainly release a mod after release to tweak the game to be closer to the 5e pure balance. Larian is fairly supportive of modders. Until then just consider it a homebrew maybe?
Someone on reddit already made edits to remove surfaces on casting firebolt,etc.
Larian actually talk to WotC about the balance and changes so it's not just random changes being blindly made by the studio either.
I also don't think Larian are unwilling to budge, they already made several changes between announcement and EA just based on concerns of people who hadn't even played yet. The release of EA was the big starting point on getting informed feedback and historically Larian has listened carefully to feedback.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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yeah honestly, I think some things will change. Surfaces i'd bet on getting toned down at least, likely by granting a save vs their effects (which would be pretty inline with pnp). Time will tell.
And if the modding tools are decent, I reckon you're right that any innaccuracies with pnp will be "fixed" in some kind of pen and paper rebalance mod. If the modding tools arent decent enough to do that, I bet they'll still get fixed, just maybe through slower process.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
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You are correct I am NOT familar with their processes, I am however, very well aware of what is realistically achievable for a team that works full time on a title and that one year is nothing in games development, whether you have a team of 800+ people or 20+.
So while you are correct, I am missing some pieces, I have enough experience to tell you the core mechanics will not change in a year when they still have a game to ship. Will there be adjustments? Yes, will there be a big rework of already existing mechancis? Simple anwser; no. Why? Because 1 year is not enough time.
The examples you gave are very likely about 2-7 lines of code, depending on how complicated their direction engine is. As for the initiative, while that would be more involved, its not a big change, certainly nowhere near the level of change required to even get close to other PC adaptions of 5e.
I can give you the reasoning behind my interpretation of the CM situation. I have worked at two very big companies with extensive CM departments (dev studios of 400+ people + support personal). If a company predicts there is going to be backlash, they have prepared statements. If not, they tend to react within a week because usually everything longer than that affects public relations and thus the bottomline. So either, their team is not sure how to answer yet, or they lack resources. Or and I admit that freely, I could be wrong about this. However, in regards to the time needed to overhaul the core mechanics, I will maintain my position.
Do you class the sort of changes people are generally suggesting as “core mechanics” though? Some might regard them as “core D&D rules”, but I don’t think many are fundamental parts of the game code. Things like whether something is an action or a bonus action, whether jump triggers reactions, whether all classes should get thieves bonus actions, whether rangers and their familiars can both attack, whether cantrips cause surface effects, whether you can heal by eating an entire cheese wheel as a bonus action, etc, etc. None of these sound like weeks of programming effort, assuming the programming isn’t a convoluted mess. As for the fact they aren’t replying to individual requests one week into early access, personally I wouldn’t expect them to. They went into early access specifically to get feedback and to see what might be improved, but they didn’t know what requests would be most popular or whether those requests fit with their vision of the game. So they’ll keep quiet at least until they’ll discussed internally and decided what they might be willing to change and what the priority list is. They’ll let us know when they are good and ready, or maybe just drop the first update without warning. By all accounts DOS 1 and 2 changed significantly in early access based on feedback.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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All banter and back and forth about whether this is Baldur's Gate or not aside. A game should not have to be argued to be a Baldur's Gate game, it should just be that game. As it stands, it is unclear if this is Baldur's Gate 3 or DOS 3. As someone said earlier business model will win. Larian will use assets again, it has been proven. Just how many of these recycled assets will be in the final version of the game is unknown, but what is known is that the DnD PC game legacy has been set. If Larian can join that legacy and perpetuate it has yet to be seen, in my opinion.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2011
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The title is misleading clickbait.
No one from Larian studios is quoted in it, and the article does not even imply that anyone from Larian told them anything. It was a waste of time to read, in fact. This. It's an opinion piece. Game mechanics can change and some will. we'll see what they do. I am not familiar with the processes at Larian, I am however familiar with AAA game development, I worked as a game designer and I am working in the software industry right now, in total thats about 10 years of experience. From what I can see as a 5e purist, the changes required for the game to resemble what I would consider a proper 5e implementation are simply unrealistic in the timeframe they have given and that just takes into account a rework of the core mechanics, that doesn't even take into account additional systems or finishing the product. So while you are entitled to that opinion, I am very doubtful about that. The fact that no community manager has entered this conversation between our factions yet also indicates that they are unsure how to handle this, if they expected this, their representatives would have a couple of statements prepared. In their previous games they made some fair sized shifts and the common asks for being more 5e would be well well within what they "could" do. I can only let you know that they are listening, there is one guy here that gets all the data, compiles it and shares it in meetings. Give this some time, they will talk to us on all of this, this past week they already shared some metrics and told us there is more to come in comms, that is going to happen. Even if you don't get what you want, if past games hold true here, you'll be satisfied with their feedback, Swen is anything but shy to talk to us. They make a lot of movies etc talking to us and by the way that is the owner, above a community manager. I'm hoping if they are somewhat stubborn on these that at the very least put some toggles in the game to make it more 5e. If they don't and if they have the same modding tools, these will be edited within days of release, a lot of what is being talked about in the mechanics are some of the easiest things to mod.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2011
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Someone will almost certainly release a mod after release to tweak the game to be closer to the 5e pure balance. It's guaranteed if they release mod tools like they have in their past games and probably even if no mod tools were released the files are probably still similar enough there are many people that already understand their structure. I'm a jr. jr. modder and it was easy to get into DOS2's mechanics and change a lot of things the way you want to see it and super easy to upload at least to the Workshop in steam to share. Creating content is where the tool I feel is hard to work with, some may disagree. But they have a spreadsheet type viewer that gets into all skills with dozens and dozens of tweaks on each. You can change how surfaces work, if a skill can aoe/trigger, change a bonus action to a cost, redo shove, jump and disengage etc. When you are done changing values you save it (upload if you want to share, all built in) and then go into the game, choose mods, shows what is loaded, check what you want and go. The numbers part of the game was very accessible.
Last edited by Horrorscope; 16/10/20 02:55 AM.
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