Larian Studios Forums Divine Divinity (English) Suggestions Two suggestions for a very promising game series

Hello all, this is my first time posting here on this forum. First off I'd like to say that so far, I have enjoyed <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />.

I thought I'd post two suggestions, since you guys have a forum set aside for them.

I've played quite a few CRPGs. So I do think what I say has some merit. This game is top-notch as is, but there are two things that I think any developer of CRPGs like DD must consider. I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed. I would do a search, but I'm not sure what keywords to use.

1. Class balance/skills:

All in all, I think the ability to branch into the skills of the other classes is a good one, to a point. IMO, it fails when a player is FORCED to do so to make his or her character viable.

In other words, if I want to play a pure warrior that is dumb as a brick ,can't unlock doors, and wouldn't know a meteor if it hit him on the head, I should be able to. I shouldn't have to use magic, or theif skills unless thats how I choose to develop my character. From what I have read and expirienced, the only character that even comes close to this is a mage - warriors and survivors MUST invest in skills outside their class to be viable.

The strength of an RPG like DD lies in its classes/races. If a player must make a jack of all trades to play, then the classes are meaningless. Morrowind is a perfect example of this. There is nothing stoping the player from mastering literally EVERY skill in the game. In Morrowind, classes are pointless. You can simply be a custom adventurer and do it all.

2. Theives/Survivor character classes:

While theives are great characters for party based CRPGs (ex. Baldurs Gate I&II) and D&D, they are almost always the odd man out in games like <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />. Since <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" /> is heavily based on combat, a theif/survivor in many situations is simply a inferior warrior. To be able to have a viable character, the player must invest points in skills and attributes that essentially turn his or her character into a warrior or mage. Or, in the case of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />, use trap skills as their main way of dealing damage. A theif's place is in the shadows - stealing, spying, assinating - not in a dank dungeon all by himself surrounded by lichs and skeletons!

Whoever has read through this whole post up to this point, thanks. Feel free to rip it apart and discusses it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

A Warrior doesn't need magic to win. The only magic skills I have were bought in books or were rewards for quests. And I've only used Meteor Strike (for taking on monsters too powerful for me). I have used Healing, but find it too slow. I do think that Identify is near essential (in my opinion). Aside fom that, almost every skill point has gone into The Way Of The Warrior. The only other skill I got sucked into was Suvivor's Instinct.

There are only (I think) two quests that require non-Warrior skills: The Thieves Guild and Kill The Vampire in the Dark Cave.

CPguy, welcome to the forums.

The only thing I'd like to add (this was discussed before though), warrior has to invest into pickpocket (1 pt) and into lockpick, as he can't force doors/chests to open using his strength. I didn't like that as I don't like to invest into thief skills being a warrior.

But this apparently was developers design.

Well, you kind of proved my point. Don't mean to be picky, but I shouldn't have to invest ANY points in anything but warrior skills. In fact sometimes, I like games that force you to stick to one set of skills. Makes the classes mean something.

To survive as a warrior, I've absolutly had to invest in aura of protection (or whatever the damage shield spell is called) and alchemy. Why? In order to get my stats high enough to equip better equipment, my vitality has had to suffer. Its just now at lvl 23 that I'm starting to increase my vitality a lot.

I'm sure other players have tried different things, but most I'd guess did it by investing in un-warrior skills (Meteor, lightning, alchemy, etc.) I'm a warrior! I'm a walking tank/lawnmower! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> I shouldn't have to mix potions or create magical force fields around myself unless I want to.

D&D 3rd edition is a good example of a balance between total openess and forcing the player to stick to one set. Want a mage to wield a sword? Ok, just invest in the martial weapons feat. Want him to be better with a bow? Invest in the close range shot feat. Of course, you're a MAGE, so as to why you'd want to invest in these feats is a mystery (unless you're multiclassing).

Point being that you're much better off spending you're valuable chances to gain feats in skills that fit you're class, although branching out is possible.

I truly believe that game developers must look at games this way. There own vision of how they want a game to be should sometimes take a back seat as to what the player needs.

Yes, my point exactly. Shouldn't I be abale to bust doors in? Pry open locks with my weapon? Nope, I have to use thief skills.

This also ties back into my second suggestions. In CRPGs where its just your character, no party, thief classes are often the odd class out. Their only skills that mean anything in your average dungeon crawler are the ability to pick locks and disarm or avoid traps.

Yeah, I know, setting traps can be a fun and effective way to dispatch foes. But its a shame that thats the only way a pure theif can be viable. To me, thieves have very little place in single character CRPGs. Their skills and talents are better used for assisnations, spying, etc. And assinations and espionage are things that have very little point in a game where the power of you character is based upon how easily you can kill mobs of monsters.

Deus Ex had the door thing done well. Every door (and chest and safe) had a selection of:

1. A key.
2. A pin-number.
3. A pin-number hack difficulty.
4. A computer-controlled lock (accessed by password).
5. A computer-controlled lock hack difficulty.
6. A lock-pick difficulty.
7. A damage tollerance.

This way, most of the game could be completed by any class. Certain doors could only be opened by more restrictive methods (e.g. Blast doors only by computer, accessed or hacked.), but these were generally key story points.

The damage tollerance wasn't simply a hit-point rating. It only had one hit-point, but you needed a powerful enough weapon to bust the door. Generally, it involved planting charges on the door.

a damage tollerence? Hmm. So My Slaher Axe or my magic or my ol' rusty halberd could bust the door in? Cool!

in theory u could survive as a survivor with just their skills eg trap planting/ disarming embrace shodows assasigns kiss. in the dungeons u could turn off the torches and creep places. sleeep duringin the day and only moving at night.

sneak in, that would be nice. And more assassinating! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> Need to uh, get rid of those really rich guys in Verdistis! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Here I go sounding picky again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />, but why do that when you can just be a warrior or mage (Unless you're doing it just for fun, that is)? With a warrior or mage there's no sneaking, traps, etc. You see an orc, you kill him. Simple and direct.

Yeah, in a dungeon you can sneak around in the shadows, but why would you want to sneak? I'd rather herd 6 enemies together and kill them with one spin attack for the expirience. And IMO, traps in DD don't count. They're too gimicky. They essentially turn your survivor into a wannabe mage.

I think it would be a hell of a lot cooler if a game just let a survivor be an expert at one stab kills. No "double damage" or "backstab" damage. Instant kill. Didn't Dark age of Camalot do this? Isn't there an assasin type character with a "pierce artery" ability that let him instantly kill somebody? I think that would be a viable way to make thief types hold there own in combat. It'd be balanced because they could still only attack one thing at a time, while a warrior or mage could attack lots of guys simultaneously. As a master of one stab kills, a thief would have to rely on stealth and hit and run.

This still has problems however. Could a theif kill bosses in one stab like this? Maybe, but would that make sense if he were fighting an ultra-powerful creature like a dragon, for example? I still think that developers need to reevaluate the nature of theif characters in CRPGs like DD and possibly not make them have to compete with warrior and mage types on a kill for kill bases. This, of course, is hard when the point of the game is to become a savior and hero who vanquishes the evil forces in the land.

As long as you becoming "The Hero" is the end point of a game, I think thieves and assasins will always be the odd class out. The only way around this is to have thousands of quests where the player doesn't ever really have to finish the main story (ie. Morrowind). And even that doesn't solve the problem! It just delays it almost indefinatly. Maybe thieves, spys, assasins, are better suited to non-rpgs like Thief, Splinter Cell, etc. eh? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/think.gif" alt="" />

Thats a really good idea! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" /> Or something like it, at the very least. A system where you can rate the strength of a door or lock and potentially force it open.

D&D has something like that, I think. It compares the charaters strength to the thickness of the door or chest that he or she wants to force open and sets a range that the player must roll in order to succeed. Don't know the specifics, but I think thats basically how it works.

hmm. They should implant this thickness strength in the next one.

D&D does have that system. They also apply it to walls! Of course, stone walls can't be taken down without several hours (if not days) of pick-axing. It really would be quicker, and more interesting, to adventure to the other side of the wall.

or u could just set of a uh, whats the bomb in the deadly gift skill? Whatever it is, u could use it, or magic to destroy walls.

Sounds good, as long as the roof caves in... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

that would hurt. HandEFood, don't let me die in here, help me get out before the roof falls in on me! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/puppyeyes.gif" alt="" />

You know, its funny because I hate to sound so critical of <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/div.gif" alt="" />. We NEED more games like this. Deep single player CRPGs are endangered right now from the more lucrative realm of MMORPGs.

I'm almost never totally happy with any game I play. Somehow, I can aways find something that, in my opinion, is an obvious flaw that makes the game less enjoyable. Of course, I'm not a developer or a programmer so its easy for me to bitch and moan! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Has anyone played Halo for the Xbox? Man, bungie knows how to do a FPS. I read a power-point presentaion the developers did about their AI at halo.bungie.org. Simply amazing, all the player feedback they got from testing, all the work that went into the AI, not just making it hard and challenging, but making it enjoyable to play against...

I digress...anyways, I really really like DD and I hope we see more games from Larian soon.

<Throws the Rope of Wrapping-Around-Someone's-Waist-And-Pulling-Them-To-Safety +1 to LewsTherinKinslayer13>

whew, almost died in there. Thnx HandEFood!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />

I agree on all three points. Down with MMORPGs! More quality Larian games! More Divine Divinity!