Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Insight rolls as a mechanic (maybe stupid idea?)

In a podcast interview Swen did, he mentioned at one point that Larian is even considering a "loaded dice" option.

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/ax...-on-baldurs-gate-3s-early-access-release
(The interview starts at 26:15, Dialogue dice comes up at 56:30)

The paraphrase is: "We'll give you the option of normal dice, loaded dice, and flat checks (stat-based)."

Loaded dice seems a little extreme, and although it'll be an option, I think there might be something in-between loaded dice and normal dice.

This offhand suggestion by user "Slapstick" in a thread about the interface makes a lot more sense - to me at least - as a way to shave some of the edges off of the RNG, without going as far as removing it or loading the dice.




"The DC maybe could be shown if you make an Insight roll."

That's such a simple idea that it could actually work. When prompts come up for skill checks in a conversation, there is an "Insight" button you press to do an active Insight check, d20 + modifiers. The DC of the Insight check would be at the developer's discretion for each NPC. If the Insight check succeeds, by giving you insight into the character you're talking to, it could reveal the DC of the dialogue check before you pick it. If you fail the check, you get no information. This would not even require any additional voiced lines, or at best generic ones that could be used everywhere. Sure, it's another RNG thing, but even if you have low Wisdom, you could still get a high roll, so it's a little less of a guess what checks would be best. It's partway between being totally blind and revealing the DC before you choose the option.


If it sounds too strong to let players roll for Insight in every conversation, that could be balanced by limiting how often that could be used. For example, you could have 2 + Wisdom Modifier number of these conversational Insight Checks per long rest, minimum of one. That would be enough that the players wouldn't use them constantly, but would save them for when they want to be sure. Or it could be a flat 3-5 checks for everyone per long rest, regardless of ability scores. Something like that.

Thoughts?

From looking at many posts on several different threads, the loaded dice make sense.

For instance someone not sure who, since I'm horrid with names, and it's been a couple days, okay I slept since then. Posted about how it makes people fell when they fail. It was a rather good post and wish I could quote it in it's entirety here. Yet not going through all the hassle, because I'm lazy.

One of the gripes is because of the percieved failure of the dice, that people want to pass, and get that warm gooey feeling, so loaded dice is to me a copout from Larian giving these people what they want. The quick easy reward that has spawned the threads that revolve around the anger over pass/fail. So I can see it, much like some, one of them freely admitting they use cheat mode. Right or wrong it's still in our hands to decide. From my perspective loaded dice is giving people what they want, a nearly 100% chance to get that win. Will I use the feature no, will others yes. either way if there is an option it's up to us to use it, and in the long wrong it's not going to hurt. Still it is as other threads speak of, with loaded dice just an illusion of choice, so there will be hate for it as well.

Normal dice is just that normal, so not much to discuss here I prefer them, because I prefer chance to play a hand in it all.

Flat checks is again to me another copout and probably an idea that came up for those that are stating in many threads that dice rolling is boring, or there are to many dice rolls, or the last example I can think of that it's not letting your characters skills/etc come into play. When by very nature of 5e and any dice based system it's a combination of dice (which is representing luck/chance/some others) plus your modifiers, and the other persons stubborness/resolve/views, beliefs opinions etc. Again not really damaging to those like me that want to use the normal dice, or even harming those that want to 'roll' loaded dice.

So Larian is trying to please these three types of people, and if it's simply a choice then there is no real harm in it, and it's a way to quiet, and appease those that don't want the traditional D&D experience.

I think it's a great idea, and a great RP-friendly use for Insight. Assessing the "opponent's strength" seems just like what Insight is for. And I don't think it would be too OP to allow it every time - it's not like it gives you a bonus to the roll, or is an automatic win of any sort.

As a side note - I love that they're thinking about flat checks. While I don't really have a problem with dice in a D&D game, I'm not a fan of RNG in general. Even for one person, having different ways of making the check is great: I could see myself using dice for the first playthrough ("D&D authentic experience") and then mostly going with flat checks for subsequent playthroughs, while reserving die checks for luck/wild magic themed PCs.

I like the idea. I've played in a few tabletop games where things like insight checks and perception checks are rolled in secret by the DM, so you don't know by the number if you succeeded or not - you just know what the DM tells you. It might be interesting to have something similar here where you can roll insight if you want and you always get (DC or other) information from it, but you don't get to see your insight roll and the accuracy of that information will vary depending on how well you did.

For people who already play D&D, I think this could be really cool. For folks who don't have a solid grasp of the underlying mechanics of the game, it might be a little confusing, so it would need to be explained in some way.

honestly you don't even have to roll secretly. Simply withhold the DC, and give them something.

for instance if the dc is 18 really high for many reasons. they roll a 12.

'You really can't get a grasp on this person.' or 'The person in question believes what they are saying.'

Example one the person is hard to read, so you don' t know. Example 2 You find out the person believes what they are saying to be true. Weither or not they are lying isn't stated, and left to the player to decide.

That's fine, too. As a player, I generally find "You rolled really poorly. It's not that you can't get a handle on this person you're talking to - you confidently and wildly misread the cues." situations to be a lot of fun and often lead to more interesting RP.

Sure, inaccurate information on low Insight check rolls is one thing you can do in tabletop. I'm proposing "does the DC of skill checks get revealed, (yes/no)" because that seems fairly simple, and the less complicated the new feature, the more willing Larian would be to entertain the notion of adding it.

That is far harder then a simple yes or no to answer. Just do to sheer opposing views it brings up, like all things. Which is why I showed an example, many won't like that calling it misleading, or some other thing, much akin to other threads, or say it needs to be expanded on. So it could very well be another one of those toggled options.

+1

I'm on board with more Insight checks during dialogue, especially as a way to get an idea about the person you are talking to (and how they may react to certain skill checks). (eg: if a character already looks angry, you'll probably have a hard time with intimidation)

Larian have already seamlessly integrated them in several cutscenes and dialogues.

Story Time: During the first 2-3 days of EA everyone was bashing Astarion for attacking their party. I was so confused!! Ok, so the guy was a bit sketchy but why was everyone harping about him trying to kill them... He'd always just brandished a knife on my character (pretty half-heartedly too) so of course, I was reasonably polite to him and we got off to a pretty good start. Then on my third run, I noticed the roll for Wisdom/Insight had succeeded and my character had noticed him creeping close. This completely changed the flow of the cutscene but it had been done in such a non-intrusive way, that for my first two runs, I'd just taken it as part of the storytelling.

Solasta: Crown of the Magister actually uses this system for their own game!

If you pass an Insight check, it displays the percentage change of success under dialogue options. Fail, and it remains hidden.