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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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You must use chrome for the navigation links to work
The Purpose is
To highlight and identify mainly technical issues with this such current build as AI, GUI, Shortcuts/hotkeys and verious other niche gameplay elements in a readable format
If you wish to comment on an existing piece of feedback:
Please
- Reference what parts you're commenting on
- Try to avoid getting too hung up on the suggestions. The point of this thread is That something needs improving not How it needs improving. They're mostly there to demonstrate, clarify and aid the points I'm trying to make anyway
- Keep things as concise and factual as possible. There's too many opinion related feedback as it is.
- This is still very much a [WIP] thread so I won't be paying much attention to the comments until this. If you want to contact me, I'm in the Larian discord server as Rykari
Warning: Due to the way BBCode works, I cannot prevent this site opening a new tab every time you use the ToC navigation.
@Larian devs you'll have to change the default behaviour so that hrefs generated by bbcode contain target="_self" not target="_blank". If people want to force links to open as a new tab they can just hold CTRL so I've no idea why BBcode sets the default to _blank
Contents:
GUI
_ Windows and Overlays
_ Hotbars
_ Character Creation
Gameplay
_ General
_ Hotkeys and shortcuts
_ Game Mechanics
_ Story
Audio
_ Characters
Video
_ Cutscenes
Multiplayer
_ MP GUI
_ MP Hotkeys and shortcuts
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=GUI=
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General commentry about your GUI - The only opinion piece, I promise... but it needs to be said
I've been a long standing supporter of Larian and the devs since dos1 and personally I think that DoS2 is one of the greatest games of the last decade. That said...
Compared to the quality of every other aspect of the game your GUI is clunky, intrusive, irritating, frustrating, badly designed, unintuitive and not fit for purpose. You really need to revamp the whole gui if you want to save yourself, and more to the point your players, a lot of pain in the future. It still looks, feels and behaves like those trashy noughtys flash GUIs running on actionscript. I shouldn't have to explain why this is really really bad. We desperately need a more responsive GUI that isn't going to shit the bed when content is scaled up.
Bad GUI will cause everyone huge frustrations and I feel like you need to be reminded of the fact that we potentially spend more time in GUIs than actually playing the game. Please, please, please do not neglect your GUI like you've done in previous titles. What you currently have is woefully inadequate and unfit for purpose for BG3 especially since you can't seem to impliment something as basic as a dropdown menu.
Lastly, You really should be thinking about how you can bring the aesthetic closer to a flat design
Windows and Overlays:
- Use them as a last resort:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/440zNLq/Overlays.jpg)
Reasoning: Overlays are visually disruptive, clunky and unnecessarily overused in many of your in-game GUI decisions
Suggestion: Stop using windows unless you absolutely have to
Related issues: Pressing escape does not exit them which only adds to the frustration
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- Menus as popup / floating windows, not overlay windows:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/JdBD83J/no-floating-windows.jpg)
Reasoning 1: Same as the previous
Reasoning 2: It always has some lag attached do it.
Suggestion: Stop using overlays
Related issues: Pressing escape does not exit them which only adds to the frustration
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Hotbars:
- Currently not fit for purpose:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/71SpfLw/Hotbar-issues.jpg)
Reasoning 1: The picture speaks a thousand words. You need to develop a far more streamlined system so that it can handle 5e
Suggestion: . You are going to need to rely on expanding menu's with intuitive hotkeys. I do intend to fully expand on this suggestion but for now it's late and I'll return to this later as I want to code a demo for you
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- Hotbar issues
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/cJVZFch/Hotbar-Not-this.jpg)
Reasoning 1: Again, the picture speaks a thousand words.
Suggestion: . You are going to need to rely on expanding menu's with intuitive hotkeys. I do intend to fully expand on this suggestion but for now it's late and I'll return to this later as I want to code a demo for you
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/kyFmNBc/Hotbar-but-this.jpg)
Character Creation:
- Replace left / right selectors for large lists with a dropdown box:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/cvny8CH/dropdown-instead.jpg)
Reasoning 1: Consider things like Character Backgrounds, Races, Classes, Deity etc. It's clunky right now and somewhat annoying to have to click through a list of 20 items to find the one you want.
Reasoning 2: You have a lot more to add in future. It's at present it's just a nuisance. In future it's definitely not fit for purpose
Reasoning 3: It takes up way too much real estate for things like Race and Class
Suggestion [Preferable]: Create a dropdown box class for you GUI
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- Adding "Background" to skills section:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/s9BcFLq/Character-creation-skills-suggestion.jpg)
Reasoning 1: Whilst contextually it's a part of the 'Origin', in practice it's frustrating to swap between tabs as we're tweaking our characters skills
Suggestion [Easy]: Move or add the "Select background" element to the skills section
Alternative Suggestion: Increase # skills from 2/2 to 4/4 & make the background 'flavour text' based on the chosen skills. Example: If I pick stealth, slight of hand, deception and nature then the available backgrounds would be: Criminal, Urchin and Charlatan (I don't know if this would conflict with 5e rules as I don't know if backgrounds affect anything other than their current use as dialogue enablers though.)
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- Better organise the tabs:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/fMF2xHv/Better-CC-organisation.jpg)
Reasoning: Just makes more sense and prevents people from naming themselves 'Tav'
Suggestion [Easy]: See screenshot
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- Reset button on Abilities:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/CszPkDB/cc-reset-button.jpg)
Reasoning: QoL Feature for us min maxers so that we don't have to click the minus button 20 times to reallocate
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=Gameplay=
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General:
- Better introduction, tutorials and explanation:
Reasoning 1: Not everyone understands the 5e ruleset and should cater to these people.
Suggestion 1: Your tutorials should be more thorough.
Suggestion 2: Your tutorials should adapt to offer more tailored advice based on their class choice
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- In game 5e compendium - Game guide, rule explanation, faqs:
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/XY7V74Z/Rules-are-made-to-be-virtual.gif)
Fact 1: You have two categories of people. People unfamiliar with DnD/5e and people who are veterans.
Reasoning 1: People unfamiliar with 5e/DnD will only want an explanation of the game mechanics.
Reasoning 2: Veterans will want to know the game mechanics AND how game limitations might have changed the rules they're familiar with
Reasoning 3: There's only so much you can, and should, introduce as 'tutorial content'. You cannot possibly cover all the basics in the tutorials so you need a second method of explaining the details
Suggestion 1: Make an in game compendium
Suggestion 2: Design it in such a way that allows adding short movies
Suggestion 3: Design it in such a way that allows the community to help write content for you. It's like giving a 5 year old crayons and a paint by numbers book, it'll get done in no time
Suggestion 4: Make sure that players can search for things, preferably with a real-time filter (so no need to hit enter to 'search')
Like this:
[img]https://i.ibb.co/gDJMcVr/compendium-filter-suggestion.gif[/img]
Further ideas: Depending on how far you want to go with this, you could create an in game compendium that connects updates from a repository. The beauty of this is that you can then set the standard and the community can then improve, add and build on. You also get the added benefit of being able to approve people and content published.
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Hotkeys and shortcuts:
- Pinging needs to work:
Reasoning: Pings are an important visual aid in teamwork
Suggestion 1: Additional ping types: "Look here", "Move here", "Warning/Danger". These could be represented as icons: Eyes for 'look here', legs for 'move here', an exclamation mark for warning
Suggestion 2: Pings should also be shown temporarily on both the map & minimap as a marker. It should also indicate the player that pinged it
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- Pressing Escape closes GUI elements:
Reasoning: People expect typical OS-like behaviour in GUI's. This means they'll expect windows to based off their 'last activate' order.
Suggestion 1: Ensure that escape closes all windows, especially highly intrusive ones like your overlays
Solution to making windows behave more OS-like:
1 In your window class, add a timer that runs when the class is called.
2 If no function exists to get currently active / opened windows, create a global array to contain them
3 Add functions that open/close windows based on the timers that exist in the list
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Game Mechanics:
Story:
- Falling from ship cutscene:
Reasoning 1: Wouldn't it be more believable to have the character fall into the water and wash up on shore? Being saved by some mystical energy out of nowhere just seems a bit 'unlikely' in this current setting
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=Audio=
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Characters:
- More voice choices and diversity:
Reasoning: A dwarves are gruff, drow are vindictive, elves are aloof, Githyanki are aggressive...
Suggestion 1: It's a small detail that will require a ridiculous amount of work so I suspect this might be a pipe dream. Still, a dwarf speaking with a posh British accent really seems to break the immersion for me
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=Video=
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Cutscenes:
- Don't chain cutscenes unless there's a practical reason:
Reasoning 1: Clunky design. If a player is skipping cutscenes it's because they want to. They shouldn't need to spam space multiple times.
Reasoning 2: Adds additional fluff to code
Reasoning 3: Adds additional and unnecessary reads to disk
Suggestion: Combine them
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=Multiplayer=
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MP GUI:
- Unable to see party members sheets (Inventory, skills, equip etc):
Reasoning: Inconsistent character selection shortcuts is frustrating
Suggestion: Allow for each client to organise the party display as they please without it clashing with other
MP Hotkeys and shortcuts:
- Selecting characters with F1,F2,F3,F4:
Reasoning 1: Inconsistent character selection shortcuts is frustrating
Reasoning 2: Unlinked companions don't always obey the displayed party order
Suggestion: Allow for each client to organise the party display as they please without it clashing with other people. I always want my character selection on F1. I want my companions to be F2, F3 etc I don't want this to change throughout the game. I'm sure others will feel the same
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Last edited by RKane; 19/10/20 12:28 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Beautifully organized and informative feedback. Thanks for putting this together with so many visuals to hammer the points home.
Agreed on all counts +1
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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+1
Great post, including a 5e compendium is particularly important to help new players enjoy the game.
Necromancy is just recycling...
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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Thanks... I'm barely scratching the surface of the feedback I have to give but I'll get through it. :p
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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agree on the points you made, especially the GUI needs to be better -> think pathfinder kingmaker where there was an extra window allowing you to select the spell effect (protection from lightning, fire, acid, etc).
this can be done for selecting the level of the spell you want to cast, instead of putting that spell in 2 hotbar slots, 1 for first level, 1 for 2nd level...and later on, a third hotbar slot for 3rd level as well? that's just way too many hotbar slots for 1 spell.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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agree on the points you made, especially the GUI needs to be better -> think pathfinder kingmaker where there was an extra window allowing you to select the spell effect (protection from lightning, fire, acid, etc).
this can be done for selecting the level of the spell you want to cast, instead of putting that spell in 2 hotbar slots, 1 for first level, 1 for 2nd level...and later on, a third hotbar slot for 3rd level as well? that's just way too many hotbar slots for 1 spell. I do have a suggestion in that regards that will greatly help their cross-platform support as well as PC players. However I need to create the code to demonstrate it so that'll come later
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jul 2017
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+1 on all. Especially the story aspect and the compendium. Including a bestiary that is updated the more you fight enemies, and from books, giving you a gameplay mechanic for the books.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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Some of it seems unrealistic to expect Larian to make those jumps in design. However +1 all the same.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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Some of it seems unrealistic to expect Larian to make those jumps in design. However +1 all the same. What do you think is unrealistic? The only feedback I've given that I don't think is realistic is what I said about character voices
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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This is one of the best posts I have seen here so far and I agree with the majority.
I think the only missing items are;
Give Rogues an identity.
Remove majority of barrels.
Upgrade the AI to deal with hiding repeatedly.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
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CHARACTER CREATION
Needs a complete redesign. The order in which you make choices is illogical. And it's just plain weird always starting with a pre-made female elf cleric character that you have to alter.
My suggestion:
Start from an empty table and choose in logical order:
1. Race and gender
2. Class and subclass
3. Attributes
4. Background and Skills, Spells, Abilities
5. Appearance and name (How many Tavs are there because name was discreetly on the first tab instead of last?)
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I'll point out with the hotbar complaint (which I actually agree on mostly) there are several 'panels' you can flip between. It wasn't immediately obvious however, but you can actually organise it so one panel is cantrip, one is level 1 spells, one is level 2, ect.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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I'll point out with the hotbar complaint (which I actually agree on mostly) there are several 'panels' you can flip between. It wasn't immediately obvious however, but you can actually organise it so one panel is cantrip, one is level 1 spells, one is level 2, ect. Yeah but shortcuts currently don't work and the current design isn't fit for purpose hence why I've added a new suggestion regarding hotbars This is one of the best posts I have seen here so far and I agree with the majority.
I think the only missing items are;
Give Rogues an identity.
Remove majority of barrels.
Upgrade the AI to deal with hiding repeatedly. Giving rogues an identity isn't really 'technical' and is likely going to become much less of a problem once they release more fully fleshed out classes Removing barrels - I disagree with this sorry Upgrading the AI to deal with hiding has always be a challenge for Larian to handle. However I think it's acceptable for them to scout the place you were last 'visible' which, unless you're using the terrain to your advantage or are a rogue with double movement, will usually be enough. Could you explain what's currently the matter with it? Rogue is the one class I haven't really tried all that much CHARACTER CREATION
Needs a complete redesign. The order in which you make choices is illogical. And it's just plain weird always starting with a pre-made female elf cleric character that you have to alter.
My suggestion:
Start from an empty table and choose in logical order:
1. Race and gender
2. Class and subclass
3. Attributes
4. Background and Skills, Spells, Abilities
5. Appearance and name (How many Tavs are there because name was discreetly on the first tab instead of last?) I've added the suggestion to move character naming to the end, setting the default to be empty & preventing players from clicking 'Venture Forth' until they've named their character
Last edited by RKane; 18/10/20 06:47 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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I feel like the usable items should just have their separate skillbar. The fact every single potion i grab gets automatically added next to my spells, messing up their order every single time i change the active spell i will use during the day is just frustrating. It discourage players from changing their spells often since they will have to fix the spellbar afterwards.
Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2020
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I feel like the usable items should just have their separate skillbar. The fact every single potion i grab gets automatically added next to my spells, messing up their order every single time i change the active spell i will use during the day is just frustrating. It discourage players from changing their spells often since they will have to fix the spellbar afterwards. In the settings, you can disable auto-adding in the hotbar for various categories.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2020
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+100 to all the OP points about GUI (including MP GUI). Great work !
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Jun 2014
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I've been away for a while, have to focus on life for a bit.
Shame about the limitations of bbcode too. I can't do sublinks properly and I also can't embed anymore images.
Last edited by RKane; 23/10/20 04:00 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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As a programmer, both back-end applications and front-end web development, I do a lot of user experience testing and work with accessibility every day for people with any form of disabilities. I've read your post and I have to admit I can't find a single fault with anything you've pointed out. Your GUI improvements and quality of life changes both limit frustration and improve user experience greatly.
Kudos and spot on, this thread should be noted.
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member
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member
Joined: May 2014
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CHARACTER CREATION
Needs a complete redesign. The order in which you make choices is illogical. And it's just plain weird always starting with a pre-made female elf cleric character that you have to alter.
My suggestion:
Start from an empty table and choose in logical order:
1. Race and gender
2. Class and subclass
3. Attributes
4. Background and Skills, Spells, Abilities
5. Appearance and name (How many Tavs are there because name was discreetly on the first tab instead of last?) +1 on name thing.
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