Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Re: Shadowheart dies more than the PC

you being multiclassed as a fighter is reason to consider your character invalidated. Since Fighter clerics have access to second wind, heavy armor, action surge with but a small dip. Plus there is fighting style given to fighters at lvl 1. Then hit dice yours is probably above the norm for a straight cleric, do to a dip even of one level into fighter.

So i guess you wouldn't like having better initiative, high dex saving throws and ac, that's fine. You make it out to be like dex is useless.

thanks for letting me know domains. I tend not to play clerics, flavor is off with me.

good point about dex usefullness

I took the duelist style. And none of the abilities you referenced has anything to do with keeping concentration or avoiding hits or AOEs.

With access to heavy armor plus duelist style your AC is going to be higher then a straight cleric, making you harder to hit in 5e. Though with a breastplate and +2 to dex, you can get an AC comparable to heavy armor. Then add in your +2 ac from duelist your now roughly +4 or +5 higher then Shadowheart is currently on AC, making it more likely she's going to get hit and break concentration.

Your survivablity with stated AC again rough estimate added to a higher overall HP do to increased hd as a fighter, I'll not add in second wind. Your going to last longer as well since your HP is higher, and your AC is significantly higher. Which is also the reason your more of a front liner then Shadowheart could ever dream about being.

Hence the reason I feel your multiclass character isn't a viable option for whats wrong with Shadowheart.

bah forgot to factor in her shield. so figure maybe AC difference is +2 or +3??

here, there is very little difference. And Im a level higher than her and only have 3 hp more

Thanks!! sorry for brainstorming in written form, this helped alot just won't quote it lol to scrolly.

If I want high AC, I throw a shield on and cast shield of faith and can get up to 20 ac. But, I also kept stats low without the ASI to take war caster so I could cast with a weapon in my hand and get advantage on con saaves. Without war caster, it does make a difference that at 4 she doesnt have that option yet.

That being said, he has been an absolute monster even without it. At level 3, 5 goblins and an ogre were tryin to kill him and it took them 3 rounds to do so (unconscious) all focusing on him 100%. They also didnt throw acid vials and light me on fire, though. That is why I kept shadowheart using cover, fog, doused in water, or in melee. Standing and spell slinging is a terrible idea with her, for sure.

Truth, even with shield of faith her ac would be only 2 higher so 18. I'm used to my cleric (maybe second one I've played on pnp) who has no problem concentrating on spells. and the whole get burped at lose concentration is so annoying on her, but then so is trying to find cover. Since Gale is more straight damage build for me. Except for my warlock where Gale fills in as deny.

The reasons she die more is probably a combination of :
- people are using her as a tank because she has a shield
- hottest death area is the 3 intellect devourers fight where it's just her and the PC (or just the PC if they took a wrong turn).

Her stats distribution is just the generic half-elf cleric ones. If Larian wants her to keep the generic stats distribution and her "starter tank" role, they could always grant her the heavy armor proficiency for free at level 1. There is a precedent, as Wyll has the rapier proficiency.

I wouldn't say she *needs* Dex, but a negative modifier is frustrating - especially when it would be so easy to fix. Wouldn't you agree that a PC who is both restricted to Medium Armor and tends toward the front line probably shouldn't have a build that gives her a permanent AC debuff?

My main advice for Larian would be the same advice I give to new players: Your build doesn't have to be optimal but it should align with what you want your character to be doing. A Trickery Cleric who is bad at Stealth and Sleight of Hand and doesn't have proficiency in Deception isn't going to make great use of Disguise Self, Pass Without Trace, etc. AND they gave her high Strength to boot, which tells me they want her dealing damage up close?

Honestly, I'm just confused by her build and it makes me not want to play with her. The game isn't exactly difficult if you know what you're doing, but there will probably be a harder difficulty when the full game launches and if she remains as is, I'm probably not going to bother using her. And that's a shame because it seems like Larian very much wants her in your party.

I'd be completely in favor of giving her Heavy Armor proficiency and keeping her as is.

+1

Agreed. Definitely not a well built cleric.

Stealth - Blessing of the trickster = Advantage on stealth, pass without a trace = +10 to your roll. Thats a pretty hefty advantage for anyone.
Disguise self - no modifier needed. The only thing that matters there is an insight check from the other party that needs to beat the DC of your spellcasting ability, wisdom, to see through the illusion.
Deception - Charisma, - you can charm, and can cast guidance to add the D4 (as Disguise Self and charm are not concentration spells) to add to whatever change to the DC is involved with the disguise self. Not being proficient in it is a shame, but I dont think it outweighs the advantages you get from the rest of their toolkit.

There ARE negatives to stealth and all that, but realistically she doesn't need it. Shes either being a face or getting past someone with the rest of the party. I am having a hard time thinking about a time where shes going to go forth and be the stealth hero while everyone waits behind.

The biggest gap is the duplicate that is just a distraction in this. Not being able to disguise self, cast a duplicate, and then cast spells through it changes where she needs to be. Having a duplicate that has mirror image on it is one HECK of a distraction for the enemy that completely wastes their time.

But, without the duplicate, still highly functional and i have used disguise self against the gith and other things to good effect. I just never caught myself going "argh! if only her [stat] was higher!"

Mostly agreed. The problem right now is that the best Heavy Armor, at least that I've found, is ring mail (AC 14). This gives her a whopping 1 more AC than Scale Mail with her -1 dex bonus.

If we could obtain Splint or even Chain Mail (please tell me where if someone has found either) then I'd even be fine spending her 4th level feat on Heavy Armor Proficiency. Chain mail would boost her AC with a shield from 15 to 19.

believe I've found chainmail though save may have been deleted do to tpk, or me testing new build and group set up. I go through alot of test characters.

There is chainmail, AC 16. It's somewhere in I believe.

I want you to know that I appreciate the devil's advocate position, but I'm not sure you're seeing what I'm saying. For you, she's "fine" and that's okay. For me, it would take a minor change to take her from "fine" to "fun". Because that's the thing, isn't it? She's not fun. To use one of your examples: my issue isn't that she *can't* be going forth and be the Stealth hero, it's that she *won't* go forth and be the Stealth Hero. It's not that she *can't* tank or be the face - it's just that there are better party members to do it. She might not be the worst party member at everything you'd want her to do, it's just that there's always someone else who does it better. And that leads me to reference your very last point: are you telling me you're perfectly happy to give her Shield of Faith if that means she can't concentrate on Bless or Bane instead? You don't think that needlessly sacrifices a Cleric's versatility/utility?

I was mainly saying that if you wanted to do any of those things, you could. Why a cleric would be stealthing around alone, I dont know, but you could. Why a cleric should be the tank, I dont know, but you could. Shes the best at being a cleric - a reasonably armored individual that is there to buff, CC, or heal that shouldn't be put into vulnerable positions in the first place. She can cast and go around a corner and stealth, she can have the item that gives misty step and cast and bamf, she really only needs to get one thing going that is concentration and then can heal as needed, sacred flame otherwise, and end every turn in a safe spot. It sounds like people want to do a lot more with her.

As a person who plays several clerics across several campaigns of different domains - my job is to be the last person to be targeted, my spells are too critical to waste. This game nerfs spell distances, which is unfortunate, but gives powerful tools like stealth, jump, and misty step, plus other stuff to allow you to use her as a full blooded cleric. I think if people want her to be in the middle of everything using inflict wounds - thats a shield, shield of faith, hat +1 dex saves, misty step necklace, and some health potions build.

Depends on what fun is, I guess. Every fight has a long rest after it anyway, currently. Use all the spells you normally wouldnt because youre a smart D&D player and you dont blow all your slots every fight you run into. If people are wanting her to not need any spells or special items and to be close to the group and in the open, then she absolutely needs to be different and you will not get any arguments from me there.

First thing I'm not nitpicking or playing around. What does bamf stand for???

Okay that aside. you don't need to long rest between every battle I tend to do it every third unless it's especially draining on resources. Though with my test builds I'm not as far as others, so take that with a grain of salt, a pinch of lemon, aaand mmmmmm...

My main problem with her is that you literally have to hide her, so she can't stand in front line leading you only one solid front liner, if she's concentrating on a spell. For some reason her sacred flame is always saved against forcing you to use guiding bolt which takes a spell slot, losing what could be a needed clutch heal. It to me seems she is more like a bard, jack of all trades master of none, compared to other clerics. Who can use sacred flame for damage, while holding up as a secondary tank in case people get past and to your wizard. Which game tends to target squishies first, sound strategy really. Yet so far I find her to be underwhelming and thats in the usually easier early game. She doesn't need a major overhaul imo, she just needs tweaks to make her more effective, and thus able to stand with the other companions.