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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2017
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What exactly are you trying to achieve with this survey? It isn't a good measure of the opinions of people who are playing the EA, because it has a very clear selection bias. Only the people who visit the feedback forum will even see it to begin with, which is a very small subset of the total number of people who are playing the EA. It is likely that there is also a non response bias here, as unless everyone who looked at this thread opened it 10 times, there is roughly 10 times as many views of the thread as responses. Only Larian could made a better survey, but they don't wanna, so lets use what we have. Except imo, the survey is completely unrepresentative of the opinions of the people who are playing the EA. The only thing we can claim with absolute certainty, is that it is representative of the people who both read the feedback forums and have enough interest to participate in these discussions.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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What exactly are you trying to achieve with this survey? It isn't a good measure of the opinions of people who are playing the EA, because it has a very clear selection bias. Only the people who visit the feedback forum will even see it to begin with, which is a very small subset of the total number of people who are playing the EA. It is likely that there is also a non response bias here, as unless everyone who looked at this thread opened it 10 times, there is roughly 10 times as many views of the thread as responses. Only Larian could made a better survey, but they don't wanna, so lets use what we have. Except imo, the survey is completely unrepresentative of the opinions of the people who are playing the EA. The only thing we can claim with absolute certainty, is that it is representative of the people who both read the feedback forums and have enough interest to participate in these discussions. True, however it is still a decent overview of how a group of people generally thinks about the EA. It's not an useless information, so long you keep in mind that it does not represent the entire population.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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What exactly are you trying to achieve with this survey? It isn't a good measure of the opinions of people who are playing the EA, because it has a very clear selection bias. Only the people who visit the feedback forum will even see it to begin with, which is a very small subset of the total number of people who are playing the EA. It is likely that there is also a non response bias here, as unless everyone who looked at this thread opened it 10 times, there is roughly 10 times as many views of the thread as responses. Only Larian could made a better survey, but they don't wanna, so lets use what we have. Except imo, the survey is completely unrepresentative of the opinions of the people who are playing the EA. The only thing we can claim with absolute certainty, is that it is representative of the people who both read the feedback forums and have enough interest to participate in these discussions. Lets tone down the hyperbole here, "completely unrepresentative"... I have opinions on the EA which I have played and filled out this survey so even assuming every other surveyor is a troll its an unreasonable assertion to make. SorcererVictor is spot on with "lets use what we have" if Larian comes out with one great then we can get much broader results. I thinks its unfair of you to lambast Sludge and his survey as if your very identity was being attacked by its results. You don't agree with it, great we hear you. For the most part disagree with the extreme you have taken your opinion to and I can at best agree with you that a Larian survey would be better.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2017
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What exactly are you trying to achieve with this survey? It isn't a good measure of the opinions of people who are playing the EA, because it has a very clear selection bias. Only the people who visit the feedback forum will even see it to begin with, which is a very small subset of the total number of people who are playing the EA. It is likely that there is also a non response bias here, as unless everyone who looked at this thread opened it 10 times, there is roughly 10 times as many views of the thread as responses. Only Larian could made a better survey, but they don't wanna, so lets use what we have. Except imo, the survey is completely unrepresentative of the opinions of the people who are playing the EA. The only thing we can claim with absolute certainty, is that it is representative of the people who both read the feedback forums and have enough interest to participate in these discussions. Lets tone down the hyperbole here, "completely unrepresentative"... I have opinions on the EA which I have played and filled out this survey so even assuming every other surveyor is a troll its an unreasonable assertion to make. SorcererVictor is spot on with "lets use what we have" if Larian comes out with one great then we can get much broader results. I thinks its unfair of you to lambast Sludge and his survey as if your very identity was being attacked by its results. You don't agree with it, great we hear you. For the most part disagree with the extreme you have taken your opinion to and I can at best agree with you that a Larian survey would be better. The Literary Digest Poll conducted in 1936, polled 2.4 million people and predicted Landon would win. In reality, Roosevelt won. The results were not even close to the prediction either. The irony is, it is 1 of the largest polls ever conducted and yet as a result of a sampling bias it was not representative of the population. I don't need to create a survey to tell you that the majority of the controversy on this forum is about how faithfully the D&D rules are adopted as well as well as whether or not the rules are RtwP vs turn based, you can tell that just by looking at the threads. This survey tells you nothing we don't already know about this forum, which is my point, the forum is not representative of the game's population, in fact, its not even representative of all the people who read the forum, its only representative of those who respond. At no point did I assume that the people who were responding were trolls, I know that for the most part, the people responding genuinely held that opinion, I am just pointing out that this survey isn't useful for Larian, because we know that its biased to begin with and that for a player its only real purpose is to be incorrectly used as an argument point.
Last edited by Sharp; 25/10/20 12:50 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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@Sharp The biggest take away from this though is not the results of the survey. Regardless of how representative or unrepresentative is it is survey results can be used to justify just about any perspective of an argument with the smallest amount of spin. I would say most of us appreciate this more as a nice overview of forum perspective without having to read through 100 pages of goop across different threads. I do understand exactly what your saying and I think the hope is less Larian needing to take this as gospel and more showing the importance of feedback economy and giving them a kick in the butt to take it seriously and actually do their own. More than anything this should serve as a motivator for them to invest in the questions and concerns that are being provided to them in their own feedback forum.
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Mr Sharp. I’ve made my professional career (8 years) in market research.
I see that you are trying to discredit the research trying to prove that the sample is not representative. Well, I’m not selling this research and extrapolating to the whole universe of players. I simply dare you to say WHERE it’s said that the respondents were extrapolated to those 2 million customers.
I’m well aware (also the community) that the survey is biased as the population is solely this forum. The guys who answered the questionnaire seems to be well aware of that - they are not naive. Do not underestimate the community.
Finally but not less important, I’ve shared the prototype of the questions before launching it. I’m not native and the language is somehow problematic to me. So the wording might be confusing but I’ve asked for a total scrutiny.
I’d be happy to fill your survey if you launch one less biased. I’m doing this only because the brand is special to me.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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A little late to the party but I participated.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2017
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Mr Sharp. I’ve made my professional career (8 years) in market research.
I see that you are trying to discredit the research trying to prove that the sample is not representative. Well, I’m not selling this research and extrapolating to the whole universe of players. I simply dare you to say WHERE it’s said that the respondents were extrapolated to those 2 million customers.
I’m well aware (also the community) that the survey is biased as the population is solely this forum. The guys who answered the questionnaire seems to be well aware of that - they are not naive. Do not underestimate the community.
Finally but not less important, I’ve shared the prototype of the questions before launching it. I’m not native and the language is somehow problematic to me. So the wording might be confusing but I’ve asked for a total scrutiny.
I’d be happy to fill your survey if you launch one less biased. I’m doing this only because the brand is special to me.
I was not saying you were saying it was representative. I know you know it was not representative, considering in your post you made it very clear it was a sample of the forum population, case in point, here (emphasis added by me).
REPORT (111 respondents) - 9.3 p.p error margin so far - Please, aid us to reach 500 respondents at least to get a 4p.p error margin - POPULATION - LARIAN FORUM
With that being said, I don't feel I am "misrepresenting" many of the people who are responding to it, because I have seen people use this survey's results as a point of contention in other discussions already, which was the only real reason I included the statement about bias in the first place. It was not aimed at you, it was aimed at anyone who does incorrectly make that assumption (assuming they even read the comments in the first place). In my opinion it would be good to add a minor note about this to your post, rather than to just assume that everyone knows it by default, because I can guarantee you that that is not the case. My question to you was, what exactly are you trying to achieve with the survey? At the time I was initially responding, I couldn't really think of a good one. @WinterbornGuard above points out that it provides a summary of the forum's opinion for someone who does not want to read through it all and that is a fair point. Either way, it was more about personal curiosity as to the purpose of the survey than about being an attack on you, so maybe be less defensive?
Last edited by Sharp; 25/10/20 02:06 AM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2019
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Good on you Sludge for going to all the trouble.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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My question to you was, what exactly are you trying to achieve with the survey? At the time I was initially responding, I couldn't really think of a good one.
Why not... just don't say anything and let them do their thing. The only thing you've achieved is negativity and drama. "Just pointing things out" and "being curious" is usually code for being critical for no conceivable benefit. What was your "best case" scenario? They take it down? Or that for some reason, people humor your lofty erudition, and someone on the internet would feel obligated to sate your scholarly needs? My god, people are self centered. Just...walk away. Let people live their lives. Its annoying reading this crap.
What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Mr Sharp. I’ve made my professional career (8 years) in market research.
I see that you are trying to discredit the research trying to prove that the sample is not representative. Well, I’m not selling this research and extrapolating to the whole universe of players. I simply dare you to say WHERE it’s said that the respondents were extrapolated to those 2 million customers.
I’m well aware (also the community) that the survey is biased as the population is solely this forum. The guys who answered the questionnaire seems to be well aware of that - they are not naive. Do not underestimate the community.
Finally but not less important, I’ve shared the prototype of the questions before launching it. I’m not native and the language is somehow problematic to me. So the wording might be confusing but I’ve asked for a total scrutiny.
I’d be happy to fill your survey if you launch one less biased. I’m doing this only because the brand is special to me.
I was not saying you were saying it was representative. I know you know it was not representative, considering in your post you made it very clear it was a sample of the forum population, case in point, here (emphasis added by me).
REPORT (111 respondents) - 9.3 p.p error margin so far - Please, aid us to reach 500 respondents at least to get a 4p.p error margin - POPULATION - LARIAN FORUM
With that being said, I don't feel I am "misrepresenting" many of the people who are responding to it, because I have seen people use this survey's results as a point of contention in other discussions already, which was the only real reason I included the statement about bias in the first place. It was not aimed at you, it was aimed at anyone who does incorrectly make that assumption (assuming they even read the comments in the first place). In my opinion it would be good to add a minor note about this to your post, rather than to just assume that everyone knows it by default, because I can guarantee you that that is not the case. My question to you was, what exactly are you trying to achieve with the survey? At the time I was initially responding, I couldn't really think of a good one. @WinterbornGuard above points out that it provides a summary of the forum's opinion for someone who does not want to read through it all and that is a fair point. Either way, it was more about personal curiosity as to the purpose of the survey than about being an attack on you, so maybe be less defensive? My bad. Language problem (again). Didn’t meant to be rude. What I can say about my main intentions: quantify this community regarding opinions and thoughts as there’s always a lot of passion in peoples speech when they are trying to prove a point. From a professional perspective it’s simply horrible to translate that in real numbers. I’ve heard that they might be gathering feedback from a great number of sources therefore I tried to summarize all the main suggestions and feedback in a single source (although I know it’s not complete) that could be representative to our community. I’ve seen other posts using the results from the survey and I’m okay with that as long as we understand that this very forum is way more “technical” than the others (reddit community for instance is happy to use the game as a medieval fantasy simulator). Thus, whenever we use that results we’ll be focusing in that niche of gamer that is above the average in understanding the game mechanics.
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Oh, also when I’ve joined this community it just felt like home? I see that even when we disagree we’re respectful to each other. Our age average (research results) is above 32 years and that might be the reason.
So I wanted to retribute this kindness with something I like to do in my RL. (Even though I can admit I was a bit lazy to polish it)
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Just ignore him, block him if you can. Enjoy your time here, a lot of people had fun with the survey, don't get dragged down in this stuff.
What is the problem you are solving? Does your proposed change solve the problem? Is your change feasible? What else will be affected by your change? Will your change impact revenue? Does your change align with the goals and strategies of the organizations (Larian, WotC)?
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Just ignore him, block him if you can. Enjoy your time here, a lot of people had fun with the survey, don't get dragged down in this stuff. Thank you for all the support, Orbax! Right now we’re sitting in 131 interviews . I’m too sleepy to share the results today but tomorrow I’ll share the updated version. I’ll spend some time finding a good website to host the results without that annoying ads. Best regards
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jun 2019
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Larian created this forum only to take feedback. He is making Larian's work easy. Lets hope that at least one of the influential people at Larian reads this thread and realize taht everyone hated hp bloat
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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I'm really surprised by the percent of people who doens't watn RTwP.
Not because I'm stubborn.
But I just can't understand what is fun in a long fight consisting of "wait-hit-waiiiiiit-hit-waiiit-hit".
The fight against all the goblins made up my mind.
I mean, it's just the beginning, we're going to encounter ennemies, and sometimes lot of them, and sometimes lot of weaklings.
So please, someone have to tell me WHEN I will enjoy a loooooong and uninteresting turn-based fight againts tons of weaklings.
The point is RTwP is not antagonist with turn-based, it's, from my point of view, more like a complement, at least.
I enjoyed playing turn-base hard and intense fights. But really, this pointless fights during 10, 15, 20 minutes ? I can't get it and this is why I can't get how people can prefer turn-based over RTwP knowing RTwP is IN FACT turn-based !
In fact, in RTwP it's still about round and so you can have auto-pause each round, so RTwP is not being against turn-based fight, it's about being for more fluid battle and more freedom in the management of them.
I mean seriously, explain me where is the "strategy" and the "need" of turn-base fight when all you did during the fight is... hit and/or casting basic spells...
But I guess people like to suffer some boring fights or just waste time over it.
Not me and not what I like in videogames, especially this one.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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@Zefhyr Mass appeal means nothing and in the gaming industry it has been repeatedly proven that homogenization, mainstream appeal and streamlining kills games because more often than not the majority of the community don't know what they want. The best example of this is World of Warcraft. World of Warcraft is Garbage - An Essay by Mash That video will probably be polarizing for many people as the person that made it doesn't talk around the issue or sugar coat it and rather deep dives it and addresses it directly. I would recommend watching it for everyone regardless on what your stance is on the matter. Many people also do not understand how RTwP works and how the action economy was still working in RTwP but it sheds the limitations of tabletop by hiding all the artificial elements.
I am here to discuss a video game. Please do not try to rope me into anything other than that. Thank you.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jun 2019
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Argonaut, true but wow also killed the mmo genre. Before wow, we had ultima online and dark sun online crimson sands, games which are true RPG's. Now, mmos are all about farming gear and managing cooldowns. Extremely boring. SP games also got infected by wow plague and even tabletop like D&D 4e.
Skyrim is a huge success and is a dumbed down version of oblivion which is a dumbed down version of morrowind
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