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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Isn’t supposed to be like that as the martial ranged fighters trades taken damage to deal less damage? I’ve never seen a game where the archer deals more damage than a melee fighter (not considering JRPGs here)
Also, I’m not worried about that clash between melee and ranged. For real.
I want to know about Tasha hideous laughter, fear, find familiar help action, blind, fairie Fire, guiding bolt, reckless attack, foresight, shadow blade, hold person &monster, etc. Are we going to sacrifice the utility of some spells to satisfy that artificial tactic positioning?
Having easier time getting advantage won't suddenly make ranged builds the meta, especially since so many of them rely on cross master with short range hand crossbow and as such harder time expositing elevation. Other than that, in a BG3 world where monsters have double the HP and 2/3 the AC to begin with - the utility and CC spells actually benefit and all in all, as said - nothing changes for GWM builds which are the most powerful and you definitely would still want to have Hold Monster up and connected regardless, because advantage for many of these spells is not even the point. And you realize you’re using one homebrew to justify another? :p I’m not trying to convince you at all. Just wanted to know how do you have that peace of mind regarding this delicate topic  Still, we’re both going to end our discussion with a respectful disagreement
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member
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member
Joined: May 2014
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The problem of +(anything) due to high ground &/or backstab is the meta gaming. When you get Great Weapon Mastery & Sharpshooter, they sacrifice their accuracy as a trade off for raw damage. If you shoot every single time with advantage means that instead of a trade off you’ll gain reliable damage. Meaning there’s no sacrifice in actions at all. You’ll never bet against the system. Also, if they implement elven accuracy, oh boy...
There are also classes that directly benefits from the advantage like Barbarians, Samurais, crowd control based classes (bards, Wizards, etc)
With that homebrew rule the game is forcing you to follow that path otherwise you gonna fail miserably. Remember that the foes will also take advantage of that. I’m seeing the 4 finesse battlemasters the easiest party composition & bards and Barbarians dropping from the A tier to D tier.
What would be “reasonable” is +raw damage instead of 2d20. That keeps the tactical positioning in the meta without causing a chain reaction in DnD5e core rules.
My problem with responses like this is the fallacious assumption 5e is some sort of balance perfection. All Larian homebrew will do is maybe flip a crown from one bunch of kings of the hill to another. BTW, GWM weapons are not supposed to get the positioning rule advantage in BG3, them being affected now is a bug. Here's relevant in-game tooltip: ![[Linked Image]](https://i.gyazo.com/6460e048408fc8359cebf9ed083ba54e.jpg) IMO, it's excellent because so many most busted DPR builds revolve around GWM, while light weapon and martial ranged users are usually left in the dust. Maybe it will even things out a tad. That’s again blaming the current balance of 5e balance... Martial ranged left in the dust? Have you ever heard of sharpshooter? 10 out 10 consider this feat the strongest in the game. Way more high rated than GWM +1, but expecting a Larian game to have ranged DPS king.
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member
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Joined: May 2014
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Not arguing. It’s your opinion and I’m okay with that. But what would you suggest to solve the problems I’ve mentioned above that steers away from the raw comparison of melee vs ranged? I addressed that in additional post, which is basically: 1. GWM weapons in BG3 won't get positioning advantage, they do now, but it's a bug as the ingame-tip states directly that only light melee weapons enjoy backstabbing. 2. Ranged builds in 5e are not exactly DPR powerhouses, same goes for light weapon users. So, if anything, this should be welcomed as a potential boost to these build to not make them irrelevant in fast of all these GWM/PoM DPR builds and what not. You never playerd an Elf SS samurai ??? I'm surprised that u are claiming that ranged builds are not DPR powerhouses. Actually they are, Sorlock and SS samurai with elven accuracy are two top DPR builds in 5e. High ground can make them even more powerful.
Last edited by dunehunter; 27/10/20 03:00 AM.
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member
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Joined: May 2014
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Isn’t supposed to be like that as the martial ranged fighters trades taken damage to deal less damage? I’ve never seen a game where the archer deals more damage than a melee fighter (not considering JRPGs here)
Also, I’m not worried about that clash between melee and ranged. For real.
I want to know about Tasha hideous laughter, fear, find familiar help action, blind, fairie Fire, guiding bolt, reckless attack, foresight, shadow blade, hold person &monster, etc. Are we going to sacrifice the utility of some spells to satisfy that artificial tactic positioning?
Having easier time getting advantage won't suddenly make ranged builds the meta, especially since so many of them rely on cross master with short range hand crossbow and as such harder time expositing elevation . 1) Stacking boxes on the ground gives u easy high ground. 2) Ranged builds are not only using bows, it seems to be u never played a ranged DPR build like SS fighter or Sorlock. A Sorlock with quicken EB can also be greatly buffed by constant high ground advantage.
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member
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Joined: May 2014
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[quote=Sludge Khalid]Other than that, in a BG3 world where monsters have double the HP and 2/3 the AC to begin with - the utility and CC spells actually benefit and all in all, as said - nothing changes for GWM builds which are the most powerful and you definitely would still want to have Hold Monster up and connected regardless, because advantage for many of these spells is not even the point. Do u mean CC like Sleep become more useful when monsters have doubled HP? SS builds is even more powerful with enemy of 2/3 AC imho. They even got Archery Fighting style to get more accuracy.
Last edited by dunehunter; 27/10/20 12:27 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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[quote=Sludge Khalid]Other than that, in a BG3 world where monsters have double the HP and 2/3 the AC to begin with - the utility and CC spells actually benefit and all in all, as said - nothing changes for GWM builds which are the most powerful and you definitely would still want to have Hold Monster up and connected regardless, because advantage for many of these spells is not even the point. Do u mean CC like Sleep become more useful when monsters have doubled HP? SS builds is even more powerful with enemy of 2/3 AC? They even got Archery Fighting style to get more accuracy. Yeah, I’ve asked for possible solutions for this advantage spree in highground and the only answer I’ve got is that DnD5e is unbalanced & martial ranged fighters deserve more DPR. That’s not solution. That’s closing your eyes to the big picture of BG3 balance. I’m probably doing some math to show in actual number what they refuse to see. Also, this doubled hp has been used as an argument to solidify the argument. Damn. Raw damage for backstab/highground (+2) would have been 100% better and it wouldn’t break classic spells in DnD5e universe. Here’s a simple math: you successfully hold person a foe> Advantage against that foe> you’ll need 3 times the round needed to kill it as the damage output hasn’t changed > your debuffer will need to concentrate for more rounds compared to RAW DnD once the foe is finished>Your concentration can be easily broken with an alchemist fire & someone at highground snipinng you. Overall value of raw hold person = gold Overall value of BG3 hold person = trash Seriously, I expected a REAL argument for that problem other than “I think archers don’t deal enough damage compared to melee”
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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I wrote a monte carlo fightning simulator for finding the best sustainable DPR in BG3 EA and it's STR 18 Thief with dual weilding Dragon's Grasp and Handaxe +1. Reasons: - bugged two weapons fightning
- advantage is very easy achievable every round with jump/backstab
- only one requirement for sneak attack is advantage (no finnesse weapon)
- overpowered Dragon's Grasp dealing effectively 1d6+2d4 fire
- doesn't need Dual Weilder feat and can have 18 STR on 4th level
- 3 attacks per round
- scales greatly with dipping (just use Broodmother amulet and eat an apple for trigger).
Only contender is Wizard with Sapphire Spark amulet till he has spell slots. When the bug with two weapons fightning will be fixed, some STR Ranger builds will be good also. Ranged build are far away in DPR terms due to being limited to one attack per round.
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member
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Joined: May 2014
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I wrote a monte carlo fightning simulator for finding the best sustainable DPR in BG3 EA and it's STR 18 Thief with dual weilding Dragon's Grasp and Handaxe +1. Reasons: - bugged two weapons fightning
- advantage is very easy achievable every round with jump/backstab
- only one requirement for sneak attack is advantage (no finnesse weapon)
- overpowered Dragon's Grasp dealing effectively 1d6+2d4 fire
- doesn't need Dual Weilder feat and can have 18 STR on 4th level
- 3 attacks per round
- scales greatly with dipping (just use Broodmother amulet and eat an apple for trigger).
Only contender is Wizard with Sapphire Spark amulet till he has spell slots. When the bug with two weapons fightning will be fixed, some STR Ranger builds will be good also. Ranged build are far away in DPR terms due to being limited to one attack per round. True, but the both the thief and ranger builds you lists here is using bug to get high DPR, like twf bug, or gwm and hunter mark apply to bonus damage.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I wrote a monte carlo fightning simulator for finding the best sustainable DPR in BG3 EA and it's STR 18 Thief with dual weilding Dragon's Grasp and Handaxe +1. Reasons: - bugged two weapons fightning
- advantage is very easy achievable every round with jump/backstab
- only one requirement for sneak attack is advantage (no finnesse weapon)
- overpowered Dragon's Grasp dealing effectively 1d6+2d4 fire
- doesn't need Dual Weilder feat and can have 18 STR on 4th level
- 3 attacks per round
- scales greatly with dipping (just use Broodmother amulet and eat an apple for trigger).
Only contender is Wizard with Sapphire Spark amulet till he has spell slots. When the bug with two weapons fightning will be fixed, some STR Ranger builds will be good also. Ranged build are far away in DPR terms due to being limited to one attack per round. Yeah. Who like fighters anyway? Of course this will change toward ranged fighters in the long run with multiple attacks per round. Yet, that poor melee barbarian/melee fighter will have to earn his meal. Who cares. high ground offers that desirable artificial feeling that you’re being very tactical. High ground also affecting bolt spells? I’m on it! And the cherry over the cake, Larian was worried that melee fighters wouldn’t have much to do unless do raw attacks (which is boring in their opinion). So let’s add those weapon skills to solve it (1 use per day). Done, we now have a masterpiece.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2015
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The high ground advantage is kind of ridiculous at the moment. Sometimes, like 1 feet above your target and it's already an advantage. Not even kidding.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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The high ground advantage is kind of ridiculous at the moment. Sometimes, like 1 feet above your target and it's already an advantage. Not even kidding. Wait until you fight a dragon with disadvantage every single turn :p
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member
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member
Joined: May 2014
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The high ground advantage is kind of ridiculous at the moment. Sometimes, like 1 feet above your target and it's already an advantage. Not even kidding. Wait until you fight a dragon with disadvantage every single turn :p Barrelmancy :P
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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The high ground advantage is kind of ridiculous at the moment. Sometimes, like 1 feet above your target and it's already an advantage. Not even kidding. Wait until you fight a dragon with disadvantage every single turn :p Barrelmancy :P And then you realize that all that 37 oil barrels that you’ve saved for that specific moment will not scratch an young red dragon with 500 bloated hp. :P
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