Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Why the aggressive 5e Feedback?

This from a mod/admin is very disappointing. You're actively discouraging feedback from the player base because, from the looks of it, you/larian don't like what is being said. This could be construed as coming from Larian themselves. If a lot of people are voicing their opinion that the game is failing at being a faithful 5e adaptation, which it objectively is, it doesn't mean we're in an echo chamber. It means Larian has pissed a lot of people off.

As for the OP, if this is what Larian thinks is a 'faithful' adaptation they are blind fools. They've changed/broken so many fundamental rules of balance in the 5e system in an effort to make "BG3 the Michael Bay Cut".

I think Traycor hit it on the nose.

People aren't asking for a 1 to 1 conversion VTT simulator for BG 3. Many spells and class abilities simply can't be translated directly without a Human DM (Suggestion spell, for example). Additionally, there are very well known weaknesses in 5e where there is room for improvement, as shown by the many iterations of Unearthed Arcana (UA for short) released by WotC over the years to playtest various fixes and balance changes. The Ranger class, specifically the Beast Master, is probably the most well known of these problematic areas. It has received *multiple* UA adjustments to test fixes.

Which is where Larian should feel like they have the most leeway to try out new things. In areas where it is well known and accepted that the current rules of 5e are not well balanced. In fact, if you look through allllll of the posts on this Feedback forum *and* the giant single thread of feedback, do you know what literally no one has complained about?

That the Ranger was changed. People have critiques and suggestions on how Larian might make it even better, but everyone from DoS 3 supporters to the most intense 5e supporters all agree that changes to the Ranger are acceptable.

The problem arises where Larian made changes that no one was asking for or expected. Where Larian has made changes with no eye towards balancing class features and spells, and definitely no thought towards what to do in the later game. They have no faith in the rules of 5e and the years of playtesting and balancing it has undergone. That's why people are complaining, not because Larian made changes to things that *everyone* agreed were necessary.

The problem for Larian is that Solasta exists. A 1:1 conversion of 5e that works and is fun to play even in EA. I had a blast. So basically all Larians homebrew bullshit is just that, bullshit. Bullshit and excuses.

I played Solasta, didn't have fun. Even then, people have demonstrated that Solasta isn't even 1:1 in 5e implementation. What they have done is make a very old school interface that has all the things some of the gamers here miss from older games. The thing is, at 40 years old, I am an old gamer as well. But I didn't want the large and pointlessly empty town or needless overhead map random travel messages/events, or generic "we meet in a bar" quest start, that some feel is more "grounded" but I felt as trite and over used.

I have 154 hrs in bg3, having tons of fun. By calling the game DOS:3 as a form of insult you are being malicious and disingenuous in feedback.

"It has to be 5e, but it's ok if you change the things in 5e that "I" don't like, but don't change the other things. It is ok to have a Larian flavor, but don't add anything that I can recognize as Larian, cause that taints the sanctity of BG as I remember it."

This ambiguous and inconsistent complaint sums it down to it's not the way "I remember BG to be". Which is true, this is a new BG, with a new developer, with a new ruleset, and a new engine, and a new story 100 years after the previous game.

Don't get me wrong, there are broken things in BG3 that need fixing and balancing. Some more looks at the actions/bonus action economy and skills. Core rules that are inconsistent with the tooltip or intended effect like offhand stat modifiers or damage application from skills applying when they shouldn't. The flavor things like surfaces and barrels that "break immersion" for some, come across as looking for reasons to not like the game and to attempt to devalue the game by refusing to call it Baldur's Gate.

This is mostly loyal fans feeling betrayed, and there is no helping emotions sometimes. It can be irrational and inconsistent between the person. The best Larian can do is be consistent with their development and clear in communication. Always adapting to negative feedback will lead to split goals which detract from the overall production. Ignoring feedback leads to discontent customers. I am fine with more adherence to the 5e rules, but I am not offended by variations and changes to the rules to make sense and better fit into the environment Larian has made. We should be heard, but we shouldn't expect to be pandered to.

@CMF

Very well said.

I actually don't think the feedback has been all that negative. It's a well loved game, the dev has invited feeback and most of the suggestions have been geared towards making the game better.

I've gotten my money's worth already but I also want some changes. So I say so. Often. And I'm doing so hoping that I Larian will take notice. (and they have fixed one of the bugs I reported)

Having that disagreement with the OP, I also think he's right in spirit -- BG3 is further away from 5th than BG2 was to 2nd. I really want the (unintentional) caster nerfing to be reversed.

Ty @Orbax. I feel bad for always being confrontational on these forums against the negative feedback. I am just afraid there is too much bandwagoning happening and people feel like they are trying to review bomb the game out of spite. I have to be careful to not mindlessly white knight this and be a hypocrite by blindly swearing the game is perfect.

There is really valid feedback once you get past all the emotions though. I want to help clear the emotional outbursts and get to real changes and feedback that can be applied more so than just having people saying DoS:3, go play Solasta.

Not really my job, but I liked what I have seen so much I feel obligated to voice some opposition so it isn't drowned out by a single narrative. This way others that are undecided or those with similar opinions don't' feel invalidated or bullied into thinking they shouldn't like this game.

It's like the emperor's new clothes. Everyone knew he didn't have clothes, but no one wanted to say anything. Once someone did, everyone felt ok to express what they have been thinking. This happens in real life all the time with people thinking "they" are wrong, because there is only one opinion being discussed and it turns into a one sided conversation.

You are clearly biased and not accurately representing the feedback given regarding Solasta.

Have people praised the GUI? I mean, sort of. Definitely a more well implemented interface for mechanics, but that is very small amount of the praise.

The reason Solasta is getting praise is because they started from the base rules of 5e and then adjusted where needed to implement a computer controlled DM rather than a Human DM. A few small tweaks as well that are being discussed (Disadvantage from attacking into Dim Light which is not 5e).

I'm not calling the game DoS 3 as an insult. I'm doing it as an accurate point of discussion, because the game *does* feel like DoS 3. Here are 73 examples -> https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=720570#Post720570

Feel free to make a list of factors that make the game feel like a BG game.

You are also trying to undercut properly made criticisms. To paraphrase another poster:
We love onions, we've loved them since we first tried them 20 years ago
Larian told us they were going to sell us an onion
Larian marketed us an onion
Larian gave us a tomato
We like tomatos, but were promised onions
Give us the onions you told us you were going to sell

This isn't an emotional response. It's a rational response for the community that has supported the BG series to the point it is still so popular 20+ years after release that it is not getting what was promised. To use your own words, you are only okay with the rules changes that make since to you. Larian has taken and is taking advantage of the efforts of a community spanning two decades and actively marketing the game as an onion. So give us the onion.

Do you have proof of this? You can't just claim stuff, dude.

CMF, I agree with your positioning in regard of this subject even though I do not share the very same joy by playing the game as it is. I’m not asking you to accept the criticism directed toward Larian but I’d you like to pretend that you’ve played the game for 120 hours and you’ve reached the conclusion that the game is bad. Wouldn’t it feel different if you compare with your current state? Personal taste is a very unique thing and people have many shades of how expressing their feelings

I like to be pragmatic but this subject touches a very emotional part of me.

Well, my statement for the game once I’ve finished it is that the game is cheap.
I appreciate fine arts and that wasn’t a piece of art in my humble opinion. The game adds to much uncoordinated content. You can clearly see that they were worried not to give content enough as if the quantity was the key buying factor for a good game.

Well, other than that, I was expecting Larian to be like CD projekt and be a disruptive company once again. Getting their golden egg to another level.
Being fearless of breaking the paradigm of their only success and move on.

We can both discuss about Solasta & BG3, but in the end that wouldn’t be a fair comparison to begin with. We’re talking about different budgets & different backgrounds. Yet, keep that in mind that the ones that should prove a point is Larian.

The feedback should be aggressive. There is A LOT of divinity in this game, and we were promised a faithful D&D experience under the baldurs gate name. Instead we got divinity 3 with d20 skill checks. Overpowered consumables and inventory manipulation to cheese fights (aka barrelmancy) is a clear sign that they are extremely off the mark. If they truly were faithful to the source material things like this would not be remotely possible. Even the music feels like its ripped right out of divinity and doesn't remotely sound like anything similar to the old baldurs gate soundtracks. Every time i hear music in the game i just get filled with sadness because its a constant reminder this isn't actually a D&D game. Thus far a lot of the promises have not been delivered, and i am going to continue pointing that out until it is corrected. If a game as bad as no mans sky can have a turn around, this game certainly can, so i am going to stay cautiously hopeful up until release. People should ALWAYS question and criticize developers until promises have been delivered.

This ,+1. I really worry about higher levels based on how i see it going at the lower levels. I have tried using the environment alot to see the difference vs purposely not using it. Most of the time i use it, it doesn't feel satisfying it feels cheesy. I want combat strategy to be all about what my character can do not what the environment can do. Part of the repeatability of bg1/2 was depending on your class and party composition encounters could play very differently. As it is now it the environment is the best way to do something, therefore any future play though would just be repeating the same strategy over and over. I dont think this game will have as high repeatability from a combat point of view.





Yes! Their are so many "unforeseen" consequences from these changes which i don't know if they are obvious to or just don't care because its "better". The more they change things the less it closely resembles 5e. During early interviews they said something along the lines of "Our game will more closely implement the 5e rule set then any other game" yet that is not the case at all, especially compared to other 5e games.

For sure, you guys are entitled to a negative opinion. Nothing should be globally accepted without dissenting opinions.

Aggressive feedback is good, but hateful feedback is non-constructive. (not that you two specifically had hateful feedback, just saying that as an example)

Subjective things like music is hard to nail down though because what you equate to Larian-esque could be considered tone setting and wonderful by others. Hence people have different taste in music as well as art and style.

Simply put, this game isn't for everyone. I don't think it is fair to trash the game though. We should be able to acknowledging the things done well while accepting it was for a different demographic. I don't like country music, but I can appreciate when someone is a good singer. I won't listen to their music, but I know they have a powerful or moving voice.

Pointing out flaws is not "trashing the game." Flaws should always be pointed out regardless of peoples feelings or views. People can have an opinion, but as soon as it opposes a fact they are just wrong. Larian hasn't lived up to all their promises, and that is a documented fact because there are many quotes and claims out there that have yet to be fulfilled. That is the basic truth of it and they should be brought to task.

First, you made the initial claim and provided exactly zero evidence to support it. Burden of proof is on you.

However, I will provide sources for my rebuttal:

1. Solasta's main forums for feedback - https://forums.solasta-game.com/forums/balance-feedback

Overwhelmingly positive feedback, most negative feedback related to changes to the Lighting rules. The Dev team has come forward and stated their reasons for the change, as well as having described in quite some detail the reason for the change.

2. Solasta's discussion on these forums
- https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=714049&page=1
- https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=93529&Number=718310
- https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=711894&page=1
- https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=719770&page=1

Wanna know how often the UI is praised? Rarely, mostly as a statement that it is more 'basic' but also much more 'functionable', but that's it. The remaining discussion centers larger on adhering closer to the rules and actual implementation of Reactions. So please, provide your evidence.

+1

That's not true at all. I do not know nearly enough about music to make an accurate objective analysis, but I have seen it done repeatedly. You can compare the type of instruments used, vocals, tones, etc. I would absolutely love for someone with expertise in music analysis to compare the BG/BG 2 soundtracks as against the BG 3 music. To me, it subjectively feels like DoS music due to the amount of 'airiness', 'chanting' and usage of harps, lacking the impact of the big brass used throughout BG. But the composer of the BG 3 soundtrack did state that he took inspiration and elements from the BG/BG 2 soundtracks, so I'm waiting for someone with more knowledge to prove if that is true or not.

DOS 1 Main Theme -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMwNSyGamJg
DOS 2 Main Theme -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DN-Dcwq4i2g
BG 3 Main Theme -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBC7z3fAYDs
BG 2 TOB Main Theme -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB7T6Kd9cYg
BG 2 Main Theme -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U88zyFLzIXQ
BG 1 Main Theme -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZP7vWiaxw7Y

Subjectively, to me, BG 3 just doesn't sound similar to BG 1&2. There are elements there, but the emphasis and tone seems all wrong. Instead I hear the airy chanting and harps of DoS 2 (but not DoS 1, which does seem to have a unique feel to me), rather than the big brass and emphatic drums of BG.

[quote=HustleCat]

"Can you argue that game is missing a nostalgic feel because it doesn't adhere to 5e rules or previous BG games as you'd like? yes."
BG 1-2 didnt use 5e they used an older system. I started playing BG about two months after the BG3 anouncement. So I dont have nostalgic lenses. What I did read and watch in interviews that I provided in 5 minutes of google. Not the only ones mind you. Is that this game was pushing 5e with Wizards backing them up. They also expressed they had to ask Wizards for rules changes for a specific class.

"Can you discuss balance issues? Definitely, it's early access and of course the game won't be perfect right away."
My friend we are going to talk about more than BALANCE ISSUES no we are going to try to change current sytems entirely. Like we did with GROUP initiative 3 months ago. And all the recorded and paid for Dialogue in past tense was changed entirely from scratch due to our feedback. Knowing that we are going to push for a lot of other drastic changes. That just like those two things will benefit everyone in the long run.

"Are other players allowed to like the changes? yes"
Oh yea... but the majority of players probably do not understand why you cannot just lower ac and bloat hp in the long run. There are more DND Players than PLAYTESTERS we are here for one job TO PLAYTEST it is what we love to do. The math is completely off yet NOT FOR THE PLAYER. This would never make it to print as is in tabletop. But it takes a very vocal minorty with experience in this field. If you dont have an understanding of the base systems and how they ripple into others when changes have been made. Well than your point will always be wrong from a mathematical standpoint. Opinion is great but when dealing with Math based mechanics you can largely be WRONG.

We like the game as is. But the game is on the verge of being more than good. This game is so so so damn close to Being ONE OF THE GREATS! We believe in it... dont think we are against it. Most of us want it to succeed it just need help. Sometimes its hard to show your game master that he is running poorly... most would say its his game let him run it like that. But I always prefer to help new gamemasters to a system cause I know everyone has potential to run the mechanics in a fun and interesting way that wont punish the players.

Just look at all the skills NOT BEING USED... AT ALL outside of a social check. This game master only knows how to run Attack and AC and Saves... there are skills that work in and out of combat and during downtime. Arcana is not just for discussion. Nature is not just for discussion. Medicine? Insight? Why is getting a feel of a character mood only work on scripted events? Why is there no system built into social behavior like is standard for rpg's? Right now we have AGGRESSIVE KILL and I LIKE YOU PEACE. What about Neutral, Hostile, cautious, friendly, and helpful? These things dont exist in the game. So social skills to improve their mood are moot ATM.

I belive things will improve... I love Larian but lets not settle for less thats not even what they want. They said LETS make this the best RPG EVER TOGETHER!!!

Not a music major, but I am an analyst by job, so I'll do my best:

BG1 music was very cadenced and sounded like a war march (does this match with the story narrative?). Militaristic might or a campaign to fight a common enemy?

BG2 music had a few sections in it which the style changed as to tell a story. Had hints of intrigue and mystique in the beginning, as the curtains raised it moves back to a march cadence with trumpets of valor/victory heralding on the heroes, or describing adventure, moving back to a somber tone of loss or maybe recovery from the action and ending on danger and doom.

Both the BG songs were more "operatic" in structure, and more like the sounds of an odyssey taking place.

DOS1 music was interesting because it had a sense of adventure and beginnings of exploration and at the same time had a sense of loss and ruin with a sad or longing tone from the violin. It sounded like an adventure of duty and guilt.

DOS2 music also had hints of sadness and loss in them while having moments of haste and adventure then reverting back to angelic callings and longing.

Both of the DOS songs were very folktale-esque and sounded like a a bard tale or songs you would hear at a medieval festival or travelers tavern.

Interestingly, BG3 music is closer to BG than DOS to me, because it goes back to the more operatic tone in the sense of drums and loud horns versus flutes and violins. Then in the middle of the BG3 music they fall back to a DOS style angelic choir of folk tale singing and story telling. This keeps going back and forth between the two styles as it plays....which makes sense as they are probably trying to emulate both.

All totally fair and respectable points and I agree. I have been the opposition to strict 5e adherence on the forums lately because it felt like there was a one sided conversation going on as a sort of echo chamber here, but as long as your mentality is spread I think it is totally productive and good critical feedback.