OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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As I read through these comments, one thing occurs to me: If BG had had an early access similar to this one, the 2/2.5e rules lawyers would have ripped it to shreds. The "expert" writers would have torn the story down "but it's just a "the Chosen One" trope story", etc. I wonder, if it had had it's own message board, how many dumpster fire threads it would have had for it's EA. I also wonder if one of those would have been "Maybe BioWare isn't the right company to develop this". Of course, back then there weren't a lot of companies that were even doing games, let alone that could have done it the justice that BioWare did. I read an earlier post here that said that BG redefined the cRPG, and that's not exactly true, it actually defined the cRPG. Prior to this, I was happily playing Doom and Quake as Freeware, and the same was true for Mortal Kombat. I got my hands on BG and never looked back. They inspired a lot of people, including CDPR, who used the engine from NWN to make The Witcher.
So my takeaway is that maybe Larian is the perfect company to do this. I played the Outer Worlds. It was a good game, but it wasn't genre defining. I also played NWN 2, yeah... Admittedly, barring the "rocks fall, everyone dies' ending, and the expansions, which were "meh" at best, the other issue was Atari, and their DRM, which they eventually patched out, which not only messed up the actual game it was supposed to protect, but interfered with my licenses to music that were completely unrelated to the game it was supposed to protect. But I digress. Most of the complaints about this game would have appeared in a BG EA situation. There would have been thread after thread complaining about RTWP gameplay mechanics too. My first experience with TB combat in a cRPG was ToEE. I shelved it, and never looked at another TB game, until after this one was announced, and it was indicated that it would have TB combat. So I looked up who was doing it, and found DOS 2. I bought it, figuring I'd play it to get used to the system, and to see what they were about as developers, because up until then, I'd never heard of them.
I'm glad I did, because it gives me some perspective on the "but it's just DOS 3" arguments, which I don't agree with, at least, not on it's face. There are elements, and assets that cross over, and the vast majority of those I actually don't mind in the least. I understand not wanting flush hundreds of manhours down the drain recreating every plate in a game. It's a huge waste of time and money. The "barrelmancy" argument falls flat, mainly because it never occurred to me to exploit it, maybe? Or, alternatively, because exploding barrels have been a trope for as long as I can remember, in games that have nothing to do with Larian. This, of course, has to be swept under the rug because "but Larian used it". Yeah? So did Square Enix, check out all the latest Tomb Raider reboots. "But Food", Bethesda says "Hello", particularly ironic since I fired up FO 4 yesterday for a bit, and you'll never guess what's on the loot tables for healing items... It's been a while since I fired up FO 3 or NV, I wonder if I'll find food there too? If I use TES: Oblivion as a "benchmark" I'm betting yes?
I also don't agree with the "but it's not DnD" posts, on their face. I say that from the perspective of someone that's played BG, BG 2, IWD, IWD 2, NWN, NWN 2, Dungeons and Dragons Online, and Neverwinter, off the top of my head. All of those games are officially licensed DnD games, and all of them are wildly different, to degrees in some cases, with the "actual rules". Note that I'm not just going with 5e in that assessment, although Neverwinter is supposed to be 5e. DDO was supposed to be 3.5e, but it's wildly different from NWN, which used the same ruleset. Yet, for all of that, they are all officially licensed which means, at the end of the day, they're all DnD games. So Larian is guilty of doing what lots of other game companies have done before. What's worse? They're guilty of doing what lots of game companies are going to continue to do going forward. Why? Because it works. Because it's possible to make great games doing this kind of stuff.
Anyone mad about barrelmancy needs to play DDO and get the quests in the 12, or maybe convince someone to get them a guest pass, and do the quest "Undermine". That quest predates Larian by quite a while, but my favorite thing to do is to blow up the barrels, because it creates a lovely chain reaction, that can wipe an entire party. Of course, it can also clear most of the mobs in the rooms where it's an issue, so if used wisely, it's a great tactic for clearing it, and is likely intended as such. Hey, if ya'll are really mad about barrelmancy, you should play Horizon Zero Dawn. Some of those robots come equipped with their own barrels. I think it's pretty clear at this point from your numerous posts that you're happy to be playing this DOS3. Everything that Larian changed was spectacular and nobody should ever need or want anything different. You try to justify their poor choices with arguments such as "errr other games do it" which makes no sense. "Oh, I'm a very experienced player that shelved ToEE because it was turn based but then discovered my new god: Larian" who gives a shit? People aren't giving their feedback on the feedback forum based on robertthebard greatest adventures. You even justify the idiotic changes to AC, HP, every goblin having grenades and magical arrows in another post with "oh but I played a campaign with my friends that was just defending a village from goblins, if we didn't make them more exciting, the campaign would suck"... Well maybe the campaign did suck. That doesn't mean that because of your poor experience in that game goblins in BG3 should be changed. It messes up a whole bunch of systems which you conveniently ignore. Have also read somewhere you saying that the reason for all these magical arrows and grenades and what not in every pleb goblin makes sense because some NPC gave it a reason... I mean... That's silly isn't it? Then let's have 3 red dragons guard princess Gut in her temple and have an NPC at the entrance show you a reason for it as well: "welp, this here is princess Gut Targaryen, our very own khaleesi, live with it.". People find these things annoying, and rightly so. You don't agree with people saying the game looks a lot like DOS when you have posts stating 80 reasons for exactly why people are saying this. "I understand not wanting flush hundreds of manhours down the drain recreating every plate in a game". Well, so do I, but that's not my problem. They are marketing their product in a way and developing it in another. There are a lot of problems with the fact that they are using the same engine as in DOS. And people are stating them here, that's what the feedback forum is for. Answering "welp, they would have to spend more time and money to make it better, so leave it's ok as is" to these things... I don't even know what to call it... This is a full priced game, not some 5 dollar indie game thrown at the store, the customer should be able to expect quality and things properly done. Finally someone that understands and articulates what im trying to say! Thank you sir, you are the reason I posted. I am not saying lets fire them, im saying they came into this thinking they could make D:OS-The DND skin. I dont want that. My main concerns are a closer to DnD balance. I know the hate for barrellmancy is strong. The higher ground is a dumb mechanic almost everyone hates. I know the ground effects arent liked. Beyond that, small changes could make this more DnD, less OS. My main "ask" is the character import/export so I can play with friends easier. That makes this more of a DnD experience. I hate the idea of being force to play as an NPC, if I dont start a brand new game with a friend. I want an entire party of player characters, not being forced to play as the Origin characters. Again all things that require small changes to what they have already done. Its not horrible, especially in this state, but I would say, if youre inviting people to pay full price for your alpha build to give you feedback, RESPOND to those people. A small customer service team on the forums or a weekly update chat addressing the top items on the forums, which is super easy to do. Something to open discussions with your paying testers.
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