Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Open letter to Larian. How to fix the "evil path"

Yeah that may well be the case, but given the request prior to EA to be a little less of a nice guy and the stats that have come out so far, there's a question mark as to whether it is by design or not and even if by design (to be harder to fall into), the fact remains that I am not incentivised to stay on the so called evil plot path.

Guys, they have already admitted in a stream (transcribed somewhere on reddit apparently) that the goblin path will be looked at again. The goblin path the way it is is definitely not the way it's supposed to be. That's why that 75/25 statistic annoyed me so much. It's like they came back on that.

Have they? Ah good.

If the distribution between the options to save the tiefling or join the goblins was perfect because every players did 3 PTs, one for each paths, the stats would be 66/33 anyway.

To save the Tielfings you can:
- kill the 3 leaders (which is the first thing the game set you on and probably what most people have done in their first PT)
- sell-out the grove and then betray the goblins/Minthara.

To side with the goblins you can only:
- sell-out the grove and side with Minthara

Going by other games, the actual distribution should be closer to 90/10, regardless of how good the evil path is. People just don't play evil even when they pretend they are evil characters. SWTOR has interesting stats about that. The Empire has the most players (and best stories), but 90% of them play light-sided Imps...when the quests don't always support it.

Yes the FR setting (taken as a whole) strongly favors good over evil. Even among the gods, Ao the overgod is supposed to be neutral but pretty much always takes the side of the good gods. And it is always the evil gods that get punished and/or imprisoned for doing something wrong by some alliance of good gods (which sometimes even includes lawful evil gods). Corellon constantly puts Lolth in her place when he feels she has gone too far with one of her plots. However, the setting does have pockets of evil, for example the Underdark, Thay, Zhentil Keep, etc.

As to "how big," anything that potentially can rise to the level of changing canon in the setting is not likely to happen. For example, a video game is not going to destroy or change into a bastion of evil some major FR city unless WotC has decided that is going to be part of canon for the setting for some reason. But something (a character or a place) that is not referenced anywhere in any FR book, yeah that can change no problem. In the case of the druid grove being destroyed, if that is the extent of what you and others are talking about as the "evil path" or even an "evil ending," I don't see a problem there. So then perhaps it is just a case of us talking past each other in terms of what we each consider to be an evil path/ending. The scope of what you all are envisioning as an evil path/ending seems to be much smaller than what I was imagining as an evil path/ending.

Interesting. Yeah, the PC being either a hero or an antihero was so not what I was perceiving as a good or evil ending. So again, clearly we were misperceiving what the other was saying. Glad we all have some clarity now, even if not necessarily agreement.

Glad to hear this.

^This. And especially when you factor in that fans of the FR setting (even if they constitute only a minority of BG3 fans) are that much more likely to mirror the setting's favoring of the good side over the evil side.

Well, I have never played the first 2 BG but I love the FR setting, especially many of the neutral and evil characters. Besides, there has to be something to do for the good characters, many of who seem really shallow and predictable.

Priestess Gut can learn of the tadpole if you let her put a non elven/half elven party member to sleep. She is convinced it is a normal tadpole until you don't transform. She, and by extension, the Absolute, don't understand why you don't transform. But outside of mind probing, which she acknowledges, Priestess Gut seems unaware of any other powers.

You can also mind-probe her tadpole in an earlier part of the conversation. Her tadpole doesn't appear to be aware like the one the party member have, too busy being "high" on faith.

I don't think this part is true, but I honestly can't prove that to you. Other interactions with the tadpole seem to suggest the Absolute is the shadow magic controlling the tadpole, but maybe not then?

As I understand it, the Absolute is tricking all the cultists into believing that the Absolute is a god. The Absolute, as knows exactly what is happening.
You don't transform because the process was interrupted.

Here's why I think the evil tadpole and the evil playthrough are linked and can't be seen as separate stories. And perhaps this could be made clearer for people who approaching this as new video game and not as a successor to the BG story. To me it seem connected because I have the Bhaalspawn story in mind.

The tadpole as Bhaal power analogue. Spoilers only to to avoid wall of text.



So long story short, the motivation for an evil playthrough should the like that Sarevok and Mellisan. What if we could take the power but avoid the end? Don't remove the tadpole, control it. Find a way to use the Bhaal power for yourself, find a way to have the godlike powers of the absolute without becoming one of her slaves. Sure I'm wearing her brand, brandishing her shield, wearing her gloves and shouting her name but I have a card up my sleeve. Like Mellisan, I'm aware.

If I were to side with the goblins I as a sneaky neutral evil \ lawful evil PC I would be thinking "get in good with the real powers at moonrise towers, find out everthing I can about the Absolute and how I take her powers without becoming slave" To do this I want to impress that eye that is hovering near the drow not just Minthara herself.

And this should lead Tav down the road to ruin because that's just what happens in the FR.

From the original FR campaign setting:

"Finally, the Realms are a land of adventure, and therefore adventurers. It is the time of heroes, when one man of pure heart (or with a powerful artifact) may hold his own against enemy hordes, where legions of evil forces may muster and be destroyed by the actions of a few, where the nations rise and fall on magical tides which mere men can control."

Although I would note that Larian has chosen to assume that the cannon ending of Avernus is the failure of good. Zariel is alive and evil as ever.

Very interesting. Thanks @azarhal! Confirms my guess that the numbers are inflated by the active encouragement to have people play the evil path.

I understand it that way too but I have a sneaking suspicion that adding the tutorial section on the Nautiloid (which allegedly was added late into development and we can see evidence of this in the location files, which are all separate from WLD_) is conveying more information to the player than the writers of the Wilderness area intended.
The problem then is that none of the Absolute cultists are aware of what I wrote in the spoiler tag. Why would the player side with people who know less about their condition than they do? Worse yet, people that try to kill you upon finding out about your problem?

100% agreed. It would be really nice if:
a) One of cultist leaders was already aware of this. They could then try to convince the player that even though [see spoiler] it is still worth it to join the cult. Develop your powers, help the Absolute, and you can become one of the few "chosen ones" who get to keep their powers and aren't enslaved.
b) One of the cultist leaders, upon finding this out from the player, revised their own understanding of The Absolute. Maybe a dialogue check to convince them to join your side, they stick with the cult but are now less certain/you can watch them go through the rationalization process described in option a.

I just had this exchange with Astarion;

I want to mainly address the part in red, but I'll open up and say that I have reasons to believe you're right, the Absolute's power and the evil path seem to be linked. I can assume that based on the fact that your tadpole powers only seem to work on people with some connection to the absolute. I can remember ever being able to use them on someone who is not related to the absolute in any way. So perhaps Larian goal here was to make these storyline paths one storyline, but alas, they didn't. I'm not sure if it's bad writing or Larian's insistence on "as many choices as possible" shtick but right now, You can use your power as much as you want and still be a "good guy" (and by that, I mean choosing any variation of the "good path"). As such, I can judge the evil path as if the tadpole powers are a big part of it (but it's not, you can finish the evil path as well without triggering any dream), but even if I did the evil path still doesn't contribute much to this storyline.

I'll try to use what you wrote (the red part) as an example - you wrote "get in good with the real powers at moonrise towers [I assume it's a mistake because your character doesn't even know the tower exist by that point in the game regardless of your allies] find out everything I can about the Absolute and how I take her powers without becoming a slave" this sounds great in theory, but there is nothing in the game to suggest the goblins has any answers for these questions. they are fanatic fans sure, but they know even less than you, and if they do know, they don't indicate it nor share it. I think the version of the evil path you are talking about is great, but I didn't see any of it in the actual game.

It's a tadpole in your brain, living sentient creature, not a power granted to you by being the child of a god nor a pact with some powerful or all powerful being or some shard/item of power. It's a creature, that yes just maybe you can control, however, you would also retain a constant fear that the creature will break free of your control and consume you. It's more having a slave rather than having power and that power would never truly be yours, it's the slaves. Having your own power is great, relying on someone else for power is a weakness. Once again you are also aware, if you investigate, that the Absolute are a bunch of Mind Flayers, and the Absolute look like some kind of mass sleeper invasion. There is a slight possibility that this is a smoke screen, but it's doubtful. Members of the cult aren't aware that they have a tadpole in their head and when told this, Priestess Gut as the example, they reject it with hostility. Genuinely there is no rational for dealing with mind slaves. Hell even going in killing Halsin and retrieving his journal makes more sense than the mass slaughter of the grove as its one of the fastest routes to figuring out what to do about the tadpole. You're never given a sound or rational argument for going with the cultist, you can most certainly head canon something but that only works while we are sitting in the Act 1 camp. Act 2 and 3 may drive it further home that siding with them is not a sane or rational choice. You get little out of the tadpole anyways, you can see into other tadpole crew minds, be a dom and you can intimidate a bunch of goblins cause of a shiny brand, its a hive mind device and for me that's a hard pass.

I would like to complement what was said in the topic with reasoning on why Lawful Evil is better than Chaotic Evil and is more tempting for the player:

https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=724244#Post724244