Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General [SPOILER]Theory about Shadowheart origin

I mean, there's no spin needed, really.
One would have to be dense like a brick to not notice that she's at very least conflicted about something.


And I mean the type of dense capable of thinking it's still of any use to beg for RTWP in the game.

It's actually pointing out facts. None of the NPCs presented thus far is completely evil of completely good and Shadowheart is actually the "less evil" among the three evil oriented NPCs, she actually seems bipolar at times (people on this very thread listed facts about that) which could give further credence to the theory she's a selunite who was captured and brainwashed by Sharrans. Also note that does not mean Shadowheart will be redeemed in every playthrough. People will make choices about her and her fate as with all other NPCs and I would not be surprised if Wyll or Gale end up with a path that turns them evil in the end.

It seems pretty clear that at some point in the past, Shadowheart was NOT evil. She probably suffered some terrible loss, and thus was easy pickings for recruitment by the church of Shar, the Lady of Loss. Then they wiped her memory and brainwashed her into their way of thinking, so now she's evil, but maybe she doesn't want to be.

Yeah the longer time goes on the more and more Gale unease me especially obsesivly talking about his goddess ex, even right after banging Tav.

Compair this promo arts, Shadow baithed in the light turning away from the dark. Gale has a sinister look on his face and one hand almost looks necrotic.

At no point she ever stroke me as "evil", even in her current state.
Guarded against others? Sure. A bit sassy/condescending toward the protagonist at first? Also true. But that doesn't make someone evil.

Hell, I've seen videos of people playing the so called "evil path" of siding with goblins and wiping out the tieflings and even then she goes into a drunken depressive state, clearly uncomfortable with her actions even if unwilling to admit it.

I can't decide if that post is sarcasm or not.

She's disturbed because it's coming from the mindflayer tadpole (or so she/we thinks).

For the Tieflings, my guess is that she sees herself in them: the Tielfings are unwelcome everywhere, just like the Sharrans. They have noting left, which would match her urchin background too.

There is nothing useful about a hag outside killing her and looting her house (hoping the rest of the her coven isn't around) and Astarion doesn't wants to be cured of the tadpole, he wants to find a way to control it.

It's more irony than sarcasm. Me laughing at myself for caring. There are more important issues than this . . . I actually had a and thought it was too much.

But I am partially serious. She approves of acts of kindness and Laezel doesn't. For LZ, compassion is a weakness, a warrior's heart should be made of steel.

The hag promises a cure and hag is a pretty darn powerful fae creature. Granted you are right about Astarian's bigger motive and so he could be speaking out fear but, in my party, Astarian disliked challenging the hag and Shadowheart approved.

Now it could vary by party -- I've only seen the dreams and evil path in videos, I don't enjoy evil narratives but in my party she generally approves of kindness. And there are

[datamining spoilers]



Oh and Gale can go to hell. He's buggy and he steals the spotlight from my Tav. He starts by insulting the abilities of my mage and my cleric he goes on to lecture my cleric of Mystra on her goddess and he explains the weave to my mage. Gale, if I didn't fear your aura killing my dog I'd push you off a cliff.

I actually wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be the Yoshimo character who betrays us at some point. I wouldn't be surprised if he's secretly working for Shar.

If you pick the lines that ask people to give you all their stuff Shadowheart approves apparently (never tried it, read about it).

As for that datamined spoilers,

and if Gale is to work for anyone, it would be a demon or devil. He has experience summoning them and he is the only one who think Raphael might actually help. I also think anyone can betray you depending on their approval level, if you did/advanced their personal quest and what you are trying to do exactly. Like Wyll leaving if you side with the goblins.

Ahh! That makes more sense than my datamining theory. Right.

Well, even if this ends up being the case, if during the time she's been a Sharran she has done evil things, she's still guilty of having done those things, isn't she? Innocent people suffered because of her actions. Why should the slate be wiped clean? I just don't accept the idea that if you do evil things but then later on express remorse and "repent," that's all it takes for you to be absolved of your evil actions.

Ah yes, a passive-aggressive attack. How marvelous.

I agree with you, the slate should not be wiped clean. I like redemption stories, but in order to be redeemed, a person has to earn it. They have to turn from their evil ways and actually do good in the world.

Agreed. She is definitely conflicted and it seems from her personality that she could be "redeemed" by those who are into that type of thing. Gale is the one I would suspect the most of having a hidden agenda and becoming "evil" by the end.


I think this sort of mentality stems from certain real world religions that like to force this forgiveness or repenting stuff. People carry over this real world influence into their entertainment. There are so many books, games, whatever where the hero is someone that did something bad in their past and have spent time trying to make up for it. People pretend the hero's past did not happen because they are good now and that is all that matters to them. There are a rare few who still consider the hero a bad person, usually they are shouted down by the majority.

Agreed. My guess is that he doesn't have a bit of Mystrl but instead has a bit of the shadow weave in him and thus is helping Shar's mission of eliminating magic from the world. The question is does he know or not? Dupe or even better at deception than Shadowheart?

Sure, SH would need to dedicate her life to making up for her misdeeds but I'm guessing -- based on dialogue after Raphel -- that she's Patty Hearst only with torture and literal brain wipe. And the fact that she was first a victim changes the obligations to rehabilitate some.

Just to have a better grasp of this... Of what "evil" actions she's supposed to be guilty of so far in the game, exactly?

I have no idea, maybe we'll find out. I mean, maybe she hasn't done much. Maybe she just joined a profoundly evil organization innocently and has maintained her innocence despite being accepted into that organization. Maybe she's undercover. Based on all that I've read about the church of Shar though, I think she would have had to have done some evil stuff just to be allowed to be a cleric of Shar.

The thing is, though, just because someone does evil things, and can thus be coded as "evil", doesn't mean there can't be lots of good in them as well. People are actually a lot more complicated than just "I have an alignment, I am good or evil". A lot of people would be judged differently as good or evil depending on what time of the day it is, or what day of the week.

She is an "evil cleric" according to the information in her character sheet, apparently this is enough for many people to have decided she has done a lot of evil acts.


Agreed. Even "lawful good" and "chaotic evil" have bad and good aspects respectively

You don't need to do anything but compare the conversations you get with Shadowheart based on how you handled the goblin situation to see she is not really evil, or at least not as evil as she wants you to think she is. A big theme with most of the companions in this game (aside from Gale and Astarion perhaps) is what they are Vs what they want you to think they are. Even Laezel who seems like a badass gith fighter is just a fledgling filled with self doubt and hesitation.

BTW I'm replying bg2 and have Vioconia with me. On the surface they are very similar, both are Shar clerics with evil disposition. But Vioconia is really evil. Granted I feel like if I were in her shoes I would probably be as evil as she is (her backstory is really well written), but still super evil

This could turn into a philosophical debate but anyway, it actually depends: if you are doing things because someone is mind controlling you (and in D&D that's a distinct possibility) you are definitely not responsible for your own actions.

That said I do think Shadowheart is on some kind of terribly evil mission on account of her masters and she's responsible for her current actions although she's probably got some mitigating circumstances. I also think the player will be given a chance to redeem her, thwart her and her masters or join her in evil.

P.S.

The idea behind redemption arcs is a character/person realizes his or her mistakes and TRULY repents (not "repents" then), asks forgiveness and then does his/her best to make good on his/her mistakes (which entails penance as appropriate). This logic is actually rooted in a lot of the western legal systems. The idea that if you do something wrong you are automatically a rotten and irredeemable individual and cannot find forgiveness is pretty terrible and unsustainable if you think about it.

Just to be clear, does the concept of redemption doesn't exist in FR?