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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Is there some reason that you feel compelled to participate in this? I mean, if it's happening in your SP campaign, it's happening because you allow it to happen. I don't do this, I tend to rest when my session is over. I use food for healing after fights, and I try to not expend all my "Oh crap" spells, just in case something big comes up. What I find hard to believe is that someone in France doing this is going to somehow adversely affect someone in Canada. Especially if they're not in a MP session together. To me, this is akin to being upset that someone rolled up a female Drow wizard, when everyone knows that only male Woodelves can be wizards. In other words, this "issue" is really a non-issue, because if one is dead set against it, they are more than free to not do it. It's not like the game forces it on us, after all.
So no, I don't think that George resting after every encounter is a problem, if that's the only way George can play. George did, after all, spend his money on the game, the same as I did. I think it's a rather silly mechanic, and won't be using it, but I'm certainly not going to be prepping up the bonfires, and sharpening the pitchforks over it either. With all due respect, if we have to think like this there is no reason to improve the game outside bugs and crashes. Is there an unbalanced class? Don't use it. Is there an unbalanced spell? Don't use it. Is there an unbalanced mechanic? Don't use it. Is this an unbalanced game? Don't play it. Except that we do have a MP component? On the other hand, this isn't an MMO, and someone resting after an encounter has absolutely no effect on my gameplay. A bug with saves? Yep, needs to be fixed, as that will adversely affect my gameplay. A bug with how a spell is supposed to work, yep, needs to be fixed, it can adversely affect my gameplay. Saving during combat, or changing armor? Yeah, that's not supposed to be a thing, but since I won't do it, because I don't think it should be a thing doesn't mean it's going to break my gameplay when I don't. George resting after every encounter in a SP game? Who's George? But from where I'm sitting, this is more about that fictional George. After all, he might be able to beat the game doing that, and we can't have that, right? The other side of this argument is that we don't have all the difficulties yet, and we don't know, for sure, how they're going to treat any of these things. Now, I'm all for removing all but the hardcore difficulty after release. I mean, I played all of the DA games on Nightmare right out of the gate, why should anyone else be able to have an easier time of it. /sarcasm, except the part where I played on Nightmare. There are things that need to be fixed. This is a thing that isn't broken. This is a thing that may well be part of this difficulty, but won't work in harder ones, which will be fine too. But right now, when the idea is to get a feel for how players are making it through the game, not so much. Because this kind of thing may well show that it needs to be adjusted for higher difficulties, or even this one on release, if there are lower difficulties. But expecting everyone to be hardcore is defeating the purpose of EA, because you can bet that there will be non hardcore players after release, and the game has to be balanced for them too. I don't think that limiting resting is to ask all the player to be hardcore. It's to ask the game to be balanced, as the PnP version played by thousands of non-hardcore ordinary peoples. If you (Larian) say this is a game based on D&D rules, you must be aware of the D&D balance. Saying "just don't rest so often" is a weak argument because you are not resolving the game flaw, you are just ignoring it. Besides, as I said, you can apply this reasoning to every non-bug-related aspect of the game. I don't want to speak for you, but I think no-one is willing to pay 60€ for a flawed game and playing it pretending said flaws aren't there.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I've seen this discussion crop up a number of times and wondered why no one has suggested just implementing a hard cooldown for long rests. It would be very easy to incorporate into the current tutorial on resting and would eliminate the problem of rest-spamming while allowing folks to wait out the CD if they have to (which honestly isn't likely, given the availability of healing in the game). The problem with sensible mechanics like hard limits on rests is that these days these are the sort of things that make Polygon/Kotaku game journalists cry "IMPOSSIBLE TO PROGRESS! ELITISM! GATEKEEPING!" and write articles against your game. You know, like the whole Sekiro debacle. The good news is that no one really gives a fuck. It's just the gaming press nodding knowingly and patting each others on the back for being terrible with games. As always Tuco, you are my hero.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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I dunno... I used to rest after every encounter in the old BG games. I guess because it's the original games it's fine there
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I don't want to speak for you, but I think no-one is willing to pay 60€ for a flawed game and playing it pretending said flaws aren't there. Lterally all of us here have done precisely that.
Last edited by DistantStranger; 31/10/20 09:12 PM.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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@robertthebard: I'm not saying the game needs to be more difficult. I'm saying I believe the current system makes rest spamming absolutely risk free and therefore (1) it weakens the game premise ("Yes we had Illithid tadpoles implanted into our brains and didn't know when we could be turned into horrible tentacled monsters. How much time did we spend exploring the ruins near Silvanus' Grove? Two weeks. It might seem like a long time but as my father used to say, when adevnturing you can never be too careful...") and (2) it makes ballancing certain classes really hard because if Larian keeps barbarians and paladins (just to name a couple) as they are they will simply be much better than fighters due to their internal mechanics. Also note that the solutions I suggested and those some other people put forward as well hardly amount at just making the game difficult for the shake of difficult. Those ideas are soft limits that can even be used to improve the gameplay experience.
@Topgoon: Really good idea about having a secret roll based on the party abilities before they can get to camp. Also yes, instant teleportation is another issue that needs to be looked into (although it helps avoiding some cumbersome unavoidable fights, like in Goblin Camp after you killed the 3 leaders). I also completely agree with the notion "random encounters" could be used to improve the gaming experience or even advancing gameplay.
@Demoulius: true, BG3 takes many liberties with monsters making them stronger than they would be in D&D and that's needed to an extent. I'm not saying you should never rest though I'm saying the game should implement soft counters for resting after every single encounter.
@Contra: that could work too but only if the game provides players with other stuff to do while they wait for the CD to expire.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Is there some reason that you feel compelled to participate in this? I mean, if it's happening in your SP campaign, it's happening because you allow it to happen. I don't do this, I tend to rest when my session is over. I use food for healing after fights, and I try to not expend all my "Oh crap" spells, just in case something big comes up. What I find hard to believe is that someone in France doing this is going to somehow adversely affect someone in Canada. Especially if they're not in a MP session together. To me, this is akin to being upset that someone rolled up a female Drow wizard, when everyone knows that only male Woodelves can be wizards. In other words, this "issue" is really a non-issue, because if one is dead set against it, they are more than free to not do it. It's not like the game forces it on us, after all.
So no, I don't think that George resting after every encounter is a problem, if that's the only way George can play. George did, after all, spend his money on the game, the same as I did. I think it's a rather silly mechanic, and won't be using it, but I'm certainly not going to be prepping up the bonfires, and sharpening the pitchforks over it either. With all due respect, if we have to think like this there is no reason to improve the game outside bugs and crashes. Is there an unbalanced class? Don't use it. Is there an unbalanced spell? Don't use it. Is there an unbalanced mechanic? Don't use it. Is this an unbalanced game? Don't play it. Except that we do have a MP component? On the other hand, this isn't an MMO, and someone resting after an encounter has absolutely no effect on my gameplay. A bug with saves? Yep, needs to be fixed, as that will adversely affect my gameplay. A bug with how a spell is supposed to work, yep, needs to be fixed, it can adversely affect my gameplay. Saving during combat, or changing armor? Yeah, that's not supposed to be a thing, but since I won't do it, because I don't think it should be a thing doesn't mean it's going to break my gameplay when I don't. George resting after every encounter in a SP game? Who's George? But from where I'm sitting, this is more about that fictional George. After all, he might be able to beat the game doing that, and we can't have that, right? The other side of this argument is that we don't have all the difficulties yet, and we don't know, for sure, how they're going to treat any of these things. Now, I'm all for removing all but the hardcore difficulty after release. I mean, I played all of the DA games on Nightmare right out of the gate, why should anyone else be able to have an easier time of it. /sarcasm, except the part where I played on Nightmare. There are things that need to be fixed. This is a thing that isn't broken. This is a thing that may well be part of this difficulty, but won't work in harder ones, which will be fine too. But right now, when the idea is to get a feel for how players are making it through the game, not so much. Because this kind of thing may well show that it needs to be adjusted for higher difficulties, or even this one on release, if there are lower difficulties. But expecting everyone to be hardcore is defeating the purpose of EA, because you can bet that there will be non hardcore players after release, and the game has to be balanced for them too. I don't think that limiting resting is to ask all the player to be hardcore. It's to ask the game to be balanced, as the PnP version played by thousands of non-hardcore ordinary peoples. If you (Larian) say this is a game based on D&D rules, you must be aware of the D&D balance. Saying "just don't rest so often" is a weak argument because you are not resolving the game flaw, you are just ignoring it. Besides, as I said, you can apply this reasoning to every non-bug-related aspect of the game. I don't want to speak for you, but I think no-one is willing to pay 60€ for a flawed game and playing it pretending said flaws aren't there. The problem with D&D balance is that the game doesn't have DM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Maybe it is, when someone mentioned the time limit in pathfinder I took a look at the forums and it wasn't the most-liked feature and this is still quite a niche game.
I can only imagine what would happen on the bg3 forums.
The real problem with Pathfinder is that it mixed rather forgiving and brilliant implementations of this feature with some unfair ones. As an example of the former, your first major goal in the game is to kill/dethrone a robber baron and take control of a region. If you accomplish it under a month (which is vaguely challenging but still enough to explore everything in that area) you'll get a luxurious extra reward (the first +2 sword in the game). The hard limit to reach the same goal before a straight game over, instead, it's three months. And you'd have to go REEEAAAALLY out of your way to waste that much time. As an example of the latter, on the other hand, later in game there are occasional HIDDEN doomclocks that can lead to a game over if ignored and the player is not even fully aware of their existence. THESE are the ones people got angry about. On top of that, once you become Baron of the first region, you'll start a side minigame of "Kingdom management" and that could lead to unexpected game overs as well if you make poor decisions. Needless to say, people were super-pissed about that too (but they made it easier since the original launch).
Last edited by Tuco; 31/10/20 09:23 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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Resting has no real consequences or roadbumps to stop you from spamming it. At worst you can just fast travel to a place you can rest no doubt. I basically didn't use any short rests in my 2nd playthrough and just used long rests all the time.
Got to the druid grove after 8ish long rests. Did a long rest after fight. 9 long rests in. Took my character 9 days to get there with 0 consequence I suppose.
Probably a couple of months before I got to underdark.
I can see a resource being days you have. Which makes sense thematically and discourages long rest spam. While leaving it up to you when you can use it. It makes sense, is thematic and up to you the player. Right now it's just free healing.
Last edited by blazerules; 31/10/20 09:32 PM.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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Why exactly do we need to force the number of rests? What's preventing characters to do nothing for 24 hours? If the number of rests were connected to the story then sure, but a lot of people hate time limits. It's a single player role-playing game without "ironman" mode, so just roleplay according to your standards.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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Why exactly do we need to force the number of rests? What's preventing characters to do nothing for 24 hours? If the number of rests were connected to the story then sure, but a lot of people hate time limits. It's a single player role-playing game without "ironman" mode, so just roleplay according to your standards. Ah, but it is not a single player role-playing game. One of the significant parts about Larian games is that they have strong multiplayer support, a trend which BG3 continues and even builds on. So what happens when, in multiplayer, one player chooses a wizard and one player chooses a fighter/barbarian? The allowance for infinite rests means that the wizard can just have so much more to do every fight. It's a big unfair to the person playing fighter, yes?
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Why exactly do we need to force the number of rests? What's preventing characters to do nothing for 24 hours? If the number of rests were connected to the story then sure, but a lot of people hate time limits. It's a single player role-playing game without "ironman" mode, so just roleplay according to your standards. Ah, but it is not a single player role-playing game. One of the significant parts about Larian games is that they have strong multiplayer support, a trend which BG3 continues and even builds on. So what happens when, in multiplayer, one player chooses a wizard and one player chooses a fighter/barbarian? The allowance for infinite rests means that the wizard can just have so much more to do every fight. It's a big unfair to the person playing fighter, yes? Sure, but you could just discuss with your friends whether you should rest or not - it is not like you'll be playing with strangers.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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Why exactly do we need to force the number of rests? What's preventing characters to do nothing for 24 hours? If the number of rests were connected to the story then sure, but a lot of people hate time limits. It's a single player role-playing game without "ironman" mode, so just roleplay according to your standards. Ah, but it is not a single player role-playing game. One of the significant parts about Larian games is that they have strong multiplayer support, a trend which BG3 continues and even builds on. So what happens when, in multiplayer, one player chooses a wizard and one player chooses a fighter/barbarian? The allowance for infinite rests means that the wizard can just have so much more to do every fight. It's a big unfair to the person playing fighter, yes? Sure, but you could just discuss with your friends whether you should rest or not - it is not like you'll be playing with strangers. I mean, probably? Idk how many people just join random games, but it's definitely non-zero as I've seen open lobbies in DOS2 and/or know of discords for playing with strangers.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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I 100% agree that there needs to be a reason to NOT long rest. Right now there is no difference between a short rest recharge and long rest recharge power because under almost every situation you can just do a long rest. On top of that you only get a single short rest per long rest meaning you have no in game reason to NOT long rest. So, yes, I agree this is an issue in the game, but I do not really like any of the ideas presented here.
Personally I would love to see the PnP hit die mechanic added to the game, allowing for more frequent short rests, but limiting the amount of healing you can get from short rests.
I am not really sure what to do about long rests as there are many solutions, each with their own pro's and con's. Perhaps a solution could be a concept of milestones that can grant 'long rest tokens'. You would only be able to travel to your camp if you expend one of these 'long rest tokens'. You could gain them (or grain progress towards them) from a whole host of things: Quest progressions, combat completions, experience earned, etc....
With the addition of hit die mechanics and limiting how often you can long rest it would be possible allow for more flavor in how players can chose to play. They can play a party that favors short rest powers, or a party that favors spell slot rationing. In the end this could increase the potential ways to play the game.
All in all, the resting system needs to be tweaked and I think increasing the frequency of short rests is the proper way to go to distinguish between the different classes and game play styles.
Last edited by Darkstorn42; 31/10/20 10:51 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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Did it not occur to you for a second that maybe actual rest system is simply not in yet?
Mind blowing revelation, I know.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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Did it not occur to you for a second that maybe actual rest system is simply not in yet?
Mind blowing revelation, I know. Well, I guess we'll know when Larian will starts talking about it.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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Did it not occur to you for a second that maybe actual rest system is simply not in yet?
Mind blowing revelation, I know. Well, I guess we'll know when Larian will starts talking about it. They are busy making the game, not explaining obvious shit to people every step. Rest, as it's now, quite obviously won't stay for actual launch. It exists in current form so we could actually play, but it's pretty clear it's a major WIP there with them deciding/working on exact limitations and triggers. There are already spots in EA as is where long rest does not work and you need to go to safe area to actually do it - Hag's den for one, pretty clearly they are considering at the very least area-based restrictions, but I bet there will be more to that too, whether it's some sort of limited resource for resting or some other solution they will come up with. The thing is, it's simply not done yet, clearly. Mommy and Daddy Larian does not need to come out and state the obvious.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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Did it not occur to you for a second that maybe actual rest system is simply not in yet?
Mind blowing revelation, I know. Well, I guess we'll know when Larian will starts talking about it. They are busy making the game, not explaining obvious shit to people every step. Rest, as it's now, quite obviously won't stay for actual launch. It exists in current form so we could actually play, but it's pretty clear it's a major WIP there with them deciding/working on exact limitations and triggers. There are already spots in EA as is where long rest does not work and you need to go to safe area to actually do it - Hag's den for one, pretty clearly they are considering at the very least area-based restrictions, but I bet there will be more to that too, whether it's some sort of limited resource for resting or some other solution they will come up with. The thing is, it's simply not done yet, clearly. Mommy and Daddy Larian does not need to come out and state the obvious. You might have noticed in the very first post of this thread I mentioned the fact some minor limitations to rest spamming are already in the game. At the same time I'm not so confident the resting system will be overhauled but if that's what ends happening then I'll be happy.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Debating on rest mechanics is very polarizing.
Some have fun in quick games, short burst of fun.
Others want to blow through the game.
You have the mechanics junkies, who analyze and want to complete everything single thing.
Why others want to get immersed in the world, taking it slowly.
All need different resting mechanics to satisfy everyone.
I personally liked the BG2 way. Can't rest in some areas (in cities the guards tell you to go to an Inn, but there were ways to go around that...). In the wild there is a chance for a random encounter scripted to that particular area -
I think it was both quick and immersive.
Also I would think that different resting mechanics could be very easily modded in.
Last edited by mr_planescapist; 31/10/20 11:35 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2014
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At the same time I'm not so confident the resting system will be overhauled but if that's what ends happening then I'll be happy. There's nothing to "overhaul" there - the bloody thing ain't ready yet, that's clear as a day. No, they won't let you pop long rest after every silly 3 goblins or 4 gnolls encounter, unless it will be a story mode difficulty. How exactly they limit it, now that's a better question and I hope they will figure out a good solution there.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
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BG2, with all its merit, was also VERY lenient with rest abuse.
In some way, despise the (negligible) risk of random encounters* it was even more abusable than in this game, since it didn't even require to load a different area as a minor inconvenience.
*Risk that could be sidestepped entirely just quicksaving before a rest and trying again if things went poorly.
Last edited by Tuco; 31/10/20 11:36 PM.
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