Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback The Game's Economy needs work.

This thread follows on from a discussion in this thread over here. The problem with the economy in the game is the following.

1. There are too many containers and so compulsive looters feel the need to waste a lot of time clicking on all of them.
2. The amount of money that exists within the game relative to the cost of the items you would wish to spend money on is not restrictive enough, which makes money feel worthless.
3. Every merchant is willing to buy every item. From a realism perspective this doesn't make a lot of sense. Why is the weapons merchant buying food.
4. Whenever you rest, merchants replenish their gold. This helps to greatly lower the value of money within the world by making it infinite.
5. It is too easy to pickpocket items off of merchants.

In order to solve these problems, I propose the following.

To deal with excess containers, I would either change many of them so they cannot be interacted with, or, within a room, combine all of the miscellaneous containers into a single "object." I like the 2nd solution more than the first because this fits more with what a DM would do at a table. If there are 100's of containers in a room, a DM would not make you search them all 1 by 1, he would say something like, "you searched through all the containers and found [...]." This would retain the "realism" of there being many containers within a warehouse for example, whilst at the same time cutting down on the clicking dramatically so that compulsive clickers aren't feeling like they are wasting a lot of their time. Note, as multiple containers would essentially be combined into a single container, this also cuts down a lot on the quantity of miscellaneous items.

In order to make both items within the world feel valuable and gold feel more valuable, in my opinion a few things need to be done. Firstly, most of the non magical items need to have their gold value lowered. The net result of this combined with the reduction to the total number of containers above, would reduce the amount of gold that a PC has. Then, the value of magical items all around should be raised, with the value of special magic items like the Magic Missiles amulet needing to be raised significantly. I think a fair price for such an item, should be for example, 20,000 gold. The result of this is that there are a few, powerful magical items (like the amulet) which are highly desirable to the player, which act as an "item to get." Players then have a reason to save gold towards purchasing items, and their currency feels valuable. Finally, in order to discourage gameplay like "gold farming," the refreshing of currency at shops should be untied from resting and instead tied to something like main quest progression. Making these changes should create a much tighter economy, where items and currency actually has a much more meaningful impact on gameplay.

Next, to further discourage picking up everything that isn't pinned down, shops should only be willing to trade in items which they specialize in. I would have merchants that trade in the following.

1. Chemist (potions).
2. Blacksmith (weapons and armour).
3. Jeweler (Jewelry).
4. Grocer (Food).
5. Scholar of Antiquities (is willing to buy some of the more weird odds and ends, for example, paintings and books).

Items like barrels should not be purchased by any NPCs. If a player decides to pick them up, it should be for their own strategic use and not because they wish to sell them. Dividing merchants like this also results in the available gold being split between different categories, so it encourages picking up a more diverse array of items rather than only picking up items in accordance with their value per weight, which is what the game currently encourages.

Finally, to deal with pickpocketing I would firstly have merchants only store a few items on their person, with the majority of their stock being stored within a secured container which is heavily guarded. Every so often the merchant should check on the chest, to ensure everything is still there. If items are stolen, then when he checks on the chest, finding it empty should result in him alerting the guards. The guards should then search anyone found within the general vicinity at the time. A persuasion check can convince them not to search you. After some time, the guards should stop looking. Any non magical items which are stolen, should be able to be sold back to the person who you stole them from, however, any magical items which were stolen, should be identified by the shop as having been their possession and this should result in them calling guards as well as initiating combat. Due to the changes to what merchants are willing to buy which I suggested above, the result of these changes means that unless you intend to use an item, there is much less of an incentive to steal items because its difficult to find a merchant to sell them to. Especially considering all the hoops you would have to go to in order to prevent guards from attacking you after the theft.

About the container issue" I'd like to see the combination of three factors:
1) There should be less containers in general. Period.
2) Merging some of them in a single lootable entity is not a bad idea at all if technically feasible for Larian.
3) The "highlight key" (currently ALT, by default) should highlight lootable containers in the area that aren't empty. I honestly don't care if "it spoils the surprise" if you didn't check them already. It's one of these cases where preserving the pacing of the experience and reducing the amount of inventory busywork would be immensely beneficial to the experience, in general.


About the economy in general, I won't go into minute detail of any tweaking necessary, but as a general rule, Larian should avoid the massive sense of inflation of their previous games. It's fine that the party gets richer over time and can afford extremely expensive stuff later in the game, but the sense should be of general consistency. For instance it's perfectly acceptable to see a merchant list from the very beginning something way too expensive for our possibilities, but have that thing maintain the same price across the entire game.

Also, as persona preferences: merchants inventory should be static (let them have a certain amount of generic replenish-able items, a set and finite amount of "unique goodies" and that's it. Any possible "refresh" over that, if really necessary, should be pre-determined at certain points in the story, not randomized at regular intervals.

Another personal preference: I'd rather see a merchant inventory being something "virtualized" so we could cut down the exploitability of pickpocketing to break the economy. Ideally pickpocketing should work like it did in BG2 and other Infinity Engine titles: instead of having full access to whatever a merchant or NPC is selling/you sold him, trying to pickpocket him should translate in checking his (separate) "pocket inventory" where one or two valuables of choices are the options (i.e. an unique magic ring, a key to a locked chest/room with an additional treasure, etc).

I agree. But I also think that the pricing of items need to be worked on (and I hope this is one of those things that just hasn't been dealt with yet developmentally). There are far too many items that should cost more than they do. Why are books worthless? Books should be valuable. Why are silver plates and wooden bowls worth the same? There is no internal consistency in the current system. The most glaring example is the coins you find in the Goblin Fortress, two silver and one gold coin. The gold coin is worth 1 gp. Reasonable, right? Well, the silver coins are also worth 1 go. Each.

Consequently, I really think the game needs the addition of silver (and maybe copper) currency, a la Dragon Age: Origins. Food should be priced at just a few copper or silver, as should wooden bowls. Silver plates should be valuable. Coins should be worth themselves in coins (duh), and so on. Furthermore, by adding subcurrencies to gold coins they wouldn't just be able to avoid pricing low cost items at the same 1 gp, they also wouldn't have to resort to ridiculous gp inflation to price really valuable goods, like magical items. It's a win-win solution.



Well they're not all rust monsters, Sharp, merchants need to eat too you know!

Absolutely agree here.

Yeah, these are issues that are present in more modern RPGs which were solved by RPGs decades ago. The adventurers mart had many items you would not be able to easily afford at the start of the game which retained a fixed value throughout the game. Likewise, in Dragon Age there was usually 1 item per vendor which was exceedingly valuable. The amount of gold a player had didn't increase much throughout the game, because they were usually saving for these items. It gave money a sense of value.

I like that the entire stock of a merchant can be stolen, I just do not like that the stock is on their person. If it was in a container somewhere and suitably guarded it would make much more sense to me from a realism perspective.


Adding smaller denominations of currency would go a long way towards solving the problem, yes. I thought of it initially but didn't propose it because I suspected we would not see it happening, but who knows, maybe we get lucky.

You know what I meant :P

Thanks for linking to my loot thread.

I completely agree with your first two big paragraphs of proposed solutions. These things would make the game much better.

I don't like the idea of making a bunch of different merchants who only buy specific things, because although it is more realistic, it tends to be very tedious for the player in actual gameplay. "Gotta go sell my stuff, this is gonna take 20 minutes. Sigh."

As for pickpocketing, your solution seems like it would work, but I find it a bit complex. I would rather they just dramatically raise the DC for pickpocketing from merchants, specifically. Make it high enough that if people really want to clean out the merchants, they're gonna have to spend a long time save scumming.

And I will say...since this isnt an MMO and therefore how others play doesnt affect you...who cares? Like I mostly agree with Fire, but "I would rather they just dramatically raise the DC for pickpocketing from merchants, specifically. Make it high enough that if people really want to clean out the merchants, they're gonna have to spend a long time save scumming." Why do you care? If someone wants to do that...let them. It has ZERO impact on your game. From my posts, you know I don't cheese. As such, I might pickpocket a story item but I am not cleaning out a merchant. It's not fun for me, but why would I care if others did?

Yeah, you keep saying it, but here's the thing: we don't give a shit of how it affects you. We are worried of how it affects us.

Always love your personal attacks instead of being able to express an opinion. Try explaining how it affects you when other people rob merchants in their gameplay.

The DC of pickpocketing merchants affects me, because it affects how I play my game. And it affects how "real" the world feels to me. If stealing literally everything from a merchant is this easy, how does any merchant ever stay in business?

Thats interesting to me. So instead of playing your character as someone who would or wouldn't steal from a merchant your gameplay would change depending on how hard it is? And I leave my car unlocked depending on the location I am parking it and my perception of its safety there. So in the druid grove, I would expect the merchants to not be too concerned (unless the stereotypes of those filthy tieflings are true). Now the ones in the goblin camp...LoL.

Oh, a lot of times I play a character that just won't steal at all. But if I am a thiefy character, then I base my criminal career on how difficult things are and how likely I am to get caught. Or on whether or not I like the people I might potentially steal from. So like, in my first playthrough of BG3, initially I didn't steal at all from the tieflings and druids, because I was sympathetic to them. Then I found out that the druids were kind of assholes, so I started stealing FROM the druids, but still not from the tieflings. When I got to the goblins, I didn't bother to steal from them because I was already planning to kill them all, and I knew I could just take their stuff then. Then I didn't steal from the folks at the myconid colony, because I liked them.

I'm not even sure where you are seeing an "attack", but ok.

What really made me aggro is how the people who buy/sell have stuff in their inventory... and you get less Money for them while they charge even MORE for it.

Especially irritating when you first enter the Druids place.
There are guys having green quality items there.
And they know you are the guy who safed them.
Yet they totally rip you off anyways.

And are they braind**d?
Do they know how powerful the stuff is they got there?
They might wanna sell us stuff PRICE REDUCED just because, what they gonna do if the one guy who might be able to safe them all, is slaughtered like a pig cause his weapon broke, or his armor was too shabby?


They all squil and wanna be safe from the Goblins.
Oh yeah? Well then dont try to make me and my bloodline in debt to yours for three generations when I come to buy some stuff. Cause this is what they do!

If pickpocketing isn't a realistic challenge, then I can't play a thieving character who is challenged by stealing. I want there to be a risk/reward relationship so I have to make judgement calls on whether to steal or not steal.

Your point is a complete non-argument. You are completely overlooking that a game needs to be designed with an eye on both mechanical challenge and narrative internal consistency in order to create a convincing world. You don't put the BFG in the first room of the Doommaze and then tell the player "so what? Just don't use it if you don't want to". That's a terrible design attitude to have.

Capitalism is a harsh mistress.

I care about it since it affect MY immersion. How other people are playing is not really my concern. When playing an RPG, I really enjoy RPGs that have strong in game economies. Having that element of saving up money for extended periods of time to purchase powerful items really adds to my gameplay satisfaction.

I imagine not many people will agree with me here, but I like busywork in games, it adds a great deal to my immersion and makes me feel like I am "planning for a journey." Mentally planning routes between shops adds a great deal to my personal experience and makes the place feel like it actually exists to me by adding a "weight" to it. It is also why I hate fast traveling (I do not personally use it) and would prefer if games did not include it. Although by now I have accepted that games aren't going to do away with it.

At a certain level I never accepted it as Capitalism anymore, I call it "Predator Capitalism".
Also its more like "Darwinism" is their mistress and they do not know they will sooner or later kill themself.
The moment water becomes too expensive for everybodys purchase, there will be so many enemys at his doorstep, the waterseller will not see the next sunrise.

No matter how many guards he hires or bribes.
This is what is going on in the Druids place.

Mr Sharp,

Although I agree with everything, from my past impressions of Larian games regarding scarcity and economics, I wouldn’t expect so much of this area of the game (although it’s really important in DnD5e).

I really hate how sleight of hand works in this game. It completely remove the meaningfulness of items and money & takes out the toughs decisions of the game.

I would remove the feature to steal from merchants and that would solve 99% of the problems. Also, remove the wares reset, so the money will be even more scarce.

Have you tried pickpocketing Auntie Ethyl in the grove?

There are times I almost want to make an official declaration that Firesnakearies speaks for me since I find myself so often in agreement with them. . .But not this time. I thing the DC for pick pocketing should correlate with two things: First the environment and how comfortable the merchant feels there; and two, whether they have been robbed before. A little reactivity would go a long way here. Have merchants that one sells to without stealing from eventually "sell" those items and restock with expanded inventory. Have those who are stolen from increase the DC of each successive theft and offer less risky commodities appealing to a different clientele than adventurers (from potions and curatives to apples and herbs, or if they are a smithy, swords and armor to hammers, tongues, and horse shoes) or, if they are cleared out completely, go bankrupt and retire from the trade. I think those impacts, though ultimately trivial, would contribute greater depth and appreciation to the game than simply raising an arbitrary target number.